Key Takeaways

In this wide-ranging conversation, Marty and NVK, founder of Coinkite, discuss the current state of bitcoin self-custody, the role of bitcoin ETFs, the potential impacts of AI on business and the economy, and the memetic nature of the battle between bitcoiners and nocoiners.

On self-custody, NVK expresses optimism about the diversity of hardware wallet solutions emerging, giving users more options to securely hold their own bitcoin. He believes self-custody is essential for bitcoin to remain uncensorable.

Regarding bitcoin ETFs, Marty and NVK see them as a "backdoor" for bitcoin to enter the traditional financial system. ETFs allow investors to get bitcoin price exposure without the challenges of self-custody. However, only holding bitcoin directly provides the benefit of bitcoin's censorship resistance.

The two discuss how AI tools like large language models and image generators are poised to radically transform many business functions and job roles in the coming years. NVK predicts AI could eliminate many middle management positions while people skilled at creatively leveraging AI will be in high demand.

Finally, they remark on the futility of anti-bitcoin forces attempting to attack bitcoin through memes and misinformation. Marty and NVK believe bitcoiners are winning the meme war and that the unstoppable idea of bitcoin continues to spread.

Best Quotes

"I think in general, in bitcoin, we're doing very well on how things are. I would agree. And just a note, your mic switched again, so if you want to toggle that while you toggle that, I will say we were chatting last week. I've been testing out the Q, which I think is an incredible device for many reasons." - Marty

"If most of the bitcoin is not outside capturable instruments, the bitcoin in the bitcoin ETF could go to zero. So govern yourself accordingly. I think it's great to have ETFs. I think it's fantastic that we have all these products that can be financialized and people can go gamble in Wall Street with. But self custody is still how bitcoin remains uncapped." - NVK

"The bullish case is that we lose 50% of the workforce, right? So all the managerial middle, the people who are sandwiched inside a company, right, especially big companies, they might go, right, because you're not going to need 50 layers of manager analyst types, right? Because one, a lot of the positions below them won't need to exist." - NVK on AI's impact

"Bitcoin is making everybody better. It is. Life is better, quantitatively and qualitatively better. And they don't realize it yet. They're playing our game now. They think we're in there with them. They're in here. They are on our meme sphere now." - NVK

Sponsors

Conclusion

This conversation highlights the many fronts on which the battle for bitcoin adoption is being waged - technological, financial, economic, and cultural. Marty and NVK's insights illuminate the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead as bitcoin continues its march towards world reserve currency status. The episode leaves the listener with a sense of optimism, that despite resistance from legacy power structures, the fundamentals of bitcoin and the ingenuity of bitcoiners will ultimately prevail. We are left with the rallying cry, "Don't let your memes be dreams!" - underscoring bitcoin's power as an idea whose time has come.

Timestamps

0:00 - Intro
5:05 - Signing devices and the Coldcard Q
13:13 - ETFs vs self custody
17:38 - SIM swaps and AI fakes
23:59 - Meatspace KYC
26:55 - AI tools, Unleashed.chat
32:04 - AI and bitcoin for businesses
42:18 - How AI will impact the world
50:14 - Gradually, Then Suddenly
50:52 - What will our children need to know?
55:10 - Covenants
1:03:10 - Tradeoffs of bitcoin scaling layers
1:13:45 - Bitcoin’s multiple value props
1:17:29 - Nostr
1:25:26 - Pace of adoption
1:36:44 - Keynesian lies
1:40:09 - Commie Canada
1:50:25 - We’re winning because they can’t meme
1:55:13 - Coinkite stuff

Transcript

00:00:02:16 - 00:00:07:17
Marty
International man of mystery, king of hardware and Victor. Welcome back to the show.

00:00:08:10 - 00:00:09:23
NVK
Hey, thanks for the.

00:00:09:23 - 00:00:14:07
NVK
Intro, because funny.

00:00:14:21 - 00:00:18:15
Marty
You've got you've got way more hardware beyond than you did last time you're on the show.

00:00:18:21 - 00:00:28:26
NVK
Yeah. No, it's. I need to organize the back wall here. It's like it's starting to. And I took some stuff off. It's starting to look a little. A little bit clutter orderly.

00:00:29:23 - 00:00:35:04
Marty
It's. I mean, as somebody who hoards coin fade hardware, I understand.

00:00:36:18 - 00:00:44:28
NVK
It's hard, man. You know, you make things. And especially like in between prototypes and things like you want to keep them. But but then, you know.

00:00:45:24 - 00:00:46:23
NVK
We only ship.

00:00:46:23 - 00:00:49:19
NVK
Like 5% of the stuff we come up.

00:00:49:19 - 00:00:54:03
NVK
With. Right? So, like, the shop is like, Really? What's up?

00:00:54:13 - 00:00:59:19
Marty
It's better when you need to keep one of each for posterity, for museum.

00:00:59:19 - 00:01:00:22
NVK
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

00:01:01:16 - 00:01:16:21
Marty
Yeah. That's the one thing that was the one cool thing when I went and interviewed Jack at Square's offices in San Francisco. Jesus. Five, six years ago. Now, at this point, they had a wall of the iterations of their hardware, the square point of sale system, which is really cool to see.

00:01:18:27 - 00:01:24:25
NVK
Yeah. No, they, they have they have a good team there. They still do understand screens, but they have a good team there.

00:01:25:06 - 00:01:43:04
Marty
No, I mean, I know on the docks conversations, but we had a nick from Becky. He was at the takeover last week and Matt and I were talking to him about the key. That was the big point of contention. Obviously, Matt was like, Where's the screen? Why do we need to screen on these devices?

00:01:44:08 - 00:02:09:06
NVK
You know, you have to check the transaction rate. No, I mean, I've I've talked to Jack enough about this. They've given him enough grief about it. It's they're going after a different market like their market is not bitcoiners. Their market is like new people, you know, like the normies out there that want to sort of like, you know, get a device that they just sort of touch their phone with and then they put it away.

00:02:09:18 - 00:02:14:16
NVK
And then, you know, they have this sort of quasi custodial experience.

00:02:16:10 - 00:02:41:01
Marty
What are what are the trade offs? Because I we talked about this on Rabbit Hole recap last week. Obviously, big, big key went on sale last week or the week before. So we had to cover it on Rabbit Hole recap, I think, and I think we've discussed this before. I think the last time you were here in person, if anything, it's just really cool to see the design landscape of Self-custody Bitcoin exchange.

00:02:41:06 - 00:02:59:20
NVK
Yeah, I mean, I think it's cool. Like, I want to see different stuff. Right? Like, I don't want to see just more of the same stuff. You know, we made the first one that had like lots of buttons and like different secure elements and like a bunch of, like, different stuff and then, you know, and then we start seeing just a bunch of more of the same.

00:02:59:20 - 00:03:18:27
NVK
And then finally we're starting to see things that are trying to do different things in different ways so that we have more options, right? You know, you have, you know, that little frost device that when attaches to the other, you have the all access one where they're trying to power the phone in an NFC and sort of like doing their own thing.

00:03:19:06 - 00:03:34:12
NVK
It's cool. It's cool and bit key doing their their own sort of like a different experience as well like that. That's what we need because if we don't explore different ways of doing self-custody with hardware, then we don't get anywhere.

00:03:36:03 - 00:03:41:09
Marty
Well, with that in mind, where are we right now? Are you happy with where we are from? A bitcoin?

00:03:41:10 - 00:03:55:13
NVK
I'm pretty happy then like, you know, it's quite remarkable that we for $150 of a gold card, you, you, you can be more secure with your, you know, germination of wealth than like a bank.

00:03:55:25 - 00:04:00:01
NVK
I think it's insane when you think about it. I mean.

00:04:00:29 - 00:04:36:13
NVK
It's like we're building a device, 450 bucks that could beat most state actors, Right. It's quite a fee. And and the device reflects all the Bitcoin, sort of like the Bitcoin sort of direction, Right. Which is you have this thing that uses a primitive that you can just, like transport to any alternative device. And it works, right? So you're not you're not captured to our company, you're not captured or brand.

00:04:36:13 - 00:04:49:00
NVK
If we disappear tomorrow or to continue on. Right. That, that's that's that's winning. I think like in general in bitcoin, we're we're, we're doing very well on, on how things are.

00:04:50:23 - 00:05:32:16
Marty
I would agree. And just a note you're Mike switched again so if you want to toggle that while you toggle that, I will say I mean we were chatting last week, I've been testing out the queue, which I think is an incredible device for many reasons and for keyboard, the battery pack I think is the biggest upgrade for me personally as a user, like not having to be six feet away from a wall to generate private public pairs and then the NFC aspect of it as well, like being able to pair it with a nunchucks watch only wallet, or just use nunchucks as a vehicle to spend from it.

00:05:32:16 - 00:05:42:01
Marty
With NFC, I think it's an incredible user experience. NFC is something I think we need to lean more into because it's just a way better experience.

00:05:43:02 - 00:06:24:23
NVK
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the QR NFC is awesome in a we, we've learned a few lessons from the Mark four and we've, we've sourced a super high quality antenna and and sort of place it well and like you know to do NFC right there is like a bunch of like little sort of moving parts and and I think it's it's quite good on the queue and I mean like the NFC experience is really awesome for phone first people I think it's it's a much better sort of direction than QR codes are and I think we're going to see more of that.

00:06:24:29 - 00:06:27:26
NVK
There is like I think two or three NFC devices in the market.

00:06:28:12 - 00:06:52:08
NVK
We're coming and it's a lot cheaper to to make. So like, you know, we added a camera to the queue that adds cost to the bomb, right? It's a very good QR Skinner on the queue. It does the job better than any other wallet, but I still don't think it's the best direction for Bitcoin. SELF-CUSTODY in terms of like economics of devices and, and user experience.

00:06:54:03 - 00:07:25:22
NVK
But you know, like we are the companies in the building up and we're going to be the companies in the transition right in towards like something else. It's going to be much better and you can't skip the part, right? Do you remember with like smartphones where like so first it was just phones, right? We have like you had like a million devices of options for flip phones and or the smart phones and then and then you had like a million options for smartphones.

00:07:25:22 - 00:07:34:17
NVK
Right. And they're all had different designs and all kinds of things. And we had to experiment. And then Apple invented the touch display.

00:07:35:20 - 00:07:37:00
NVK
Of capacitance.

00:07:37:00 - 00:08:00:21
NVK
That actually works. Right. And then everything became exactly what an iPhone is, right? But it took like 20 years to get there. You can see 30, 40, depending on where you want to start. But, you know, at least 20 years of of experimenting and improving on on the smartphone to get somewhere. So you know, the happened then that happened to computers, that happened to everything.

00:08:00:21 - 00:08:09:19
NVK
You just you need to work that process through because we have something that is fairly new. Right. Like custody. Bitcoin is such a new thing.

00:08:11:23 - 00:08:25:11
Marty
Such a new thing. But it's it's coming out of favor. We have the ETF style. We don't need the cost. Your Bitcoin anymore. ETFs are here. It's like, why do you even run your company anymore? We don't need it, right?

00:08:26:25 - 00:08:49:03
NVK
I mean, like the ETFs are great and I really don't have a problem with it. I legit think it's fantastic. I mean, any way in which we take all the economic value from the traditional sort of from the considered, there's the best, right? So if the ETF is how we get some of that, fantastic. But but here's the thing, right?

00:08:49:03 - 00:09:17:09
NVK
I mean if if most of the Bitcoin is not outside capture both instruments. You know the Bitcoin in the Bitcoin ETF could go to zero so you know covered yourself accordingly. I think it's it's great to have ETFs I think is fantastic that we have all this products that can be financialized and people can go gamble in Wall Street with but you know self-custody still how, you know, Bitcoin remains.

00:09:17:12 - 00:09:32:01
NVK
And so I think people get it. You know, I think it's it's so far I mean, what is it like 90% of all the Bitcoin is outside of the financial system. So, you know, it's working.

00:09:32:24 - 00:09:34:29
Marty
Do you worry that people will get complacent?

00:09:36:18 - 00:09:39:03
NVK
I don't have worried that I don't have worries.

00:09:40:14 - 00:09:41:29
Marty
It's gone. I just need.

00:09:42:02 - 00:09:45:06
NVK
It. Does it really don't like it's.

00:09:45:14 - 00:09:50:26
NVK
That the incentives are like really good to push people in this different directions, right?

00:09:51:09 - 00:09:52:21
NVK
Like, you know, maybe.

00:09:52:21 - 00:09:57:00
NVK
Russia ends up with like a huge buyer of Bitcoin. They're not going to put an American ETF.

00:09:57:09 - 00:09:58:24
NVK
Right. Like, you know.

00:09:59:02 - 00:10:14:11
NVK
So you have this like theory stuff. You have the, the, the selfish actor incentives, you know, like it's all there. So it's very hard for for me to be worried about like things sort of like going in this sort of like dark directions.

00:10:15:20 - 00:10:39:01
Marty
Yeah, I would agree. I'm under the impression that most things are good for bitcoin. The one thing that has been annoying for me personally is this idea that Self-custody is impossible, or it's just a barrier to high for most people. And something we've talked a lot about on this show and I'll rabbit, I'll recap in years past this.

00:10:39:06 - 00:10:57:24
Marty
It's really not that hard. Like, yes, it does take some personal responsibility to produce and then secure a 12 or 24 word private key. But I don't think it's as hard as the Gen-X slash boomers telling people, just buy the ETF, don't self-custody your Bitcoin.

00:10:58:09 - 00:11:12:07
NVK
I mean, this this all comes from like a completely like sort of absurd sort of reference. Like, you know, first of all, you know, anybody who's not a boomer. So, like, they probably don't even have a trading accounts to buy an ETF.

00:11:12:27 - 00:11:13:16
NVK
That starts from.

00:11:13:16 - 00:11:42:01
NVK
Different like the gen, the Genz, the Gen Z and then below don't have trading accounts, right? I mean, they can maybe buy through like, you know, those those apps, the Robinhood's or whatever, but they don't like them because they they drugged GameStop. Right. So and then like think about it this way, Like if you were to walk to a bank, right, to, to open a bank account, it's a pain in the ass too, right?

00:11:42:01 - 00:12:12:01
NVK
So that requires some knowledge, right? Like applying for a credit on something like requires some knowledge. It takes time. It's not immediate. And then when you want to buy your favorite thing on the Internet as a younger person, you are not allowed to. So I think when people just go and they buy a gold card and they take 5 minutes to just like press the buttons and follow the very basic steps, right?

00:12:12:25 - 00:12:33:23
NVK
It's very possible for them to do it. And you know what? If they don't want to put it in steal to start, well, they just put on an encrypted micro SD card and, you know, put it somewhere else to start. Right. Is that like, terrible? Yes, But that is like not as bad as like, having video though. So, yeah, you know, put on steal but start somewhere.

00:12:34:24 - 00:12:39:05
Marty
Yeah but I heard you can get sim swapped if you hold it on the gold card.

00:12:40:15 - 00:12:59:02
NVK
Yeah. I mean you know every cycle we have the of experts there's always somebody who's going to be the new role fall or something like that. Yeah. What are you going to do with those guys. I mean they want to I really think they're just trolling us to get more attention. Like, you can't be serious. You can't be that stupid.

00:13:00:00 - 00:13:27:01
Marty
No. And it's incredibly hilarious and somewhat ironic because in you were tweeting about this this morning, I mean, the attacks that can be levied on individuals holding their bitcoin, let's just say, on an exchange particularly are pretty pronounced and only getting more pronounced throughout time since swap being one of them. And I actually had a friend who got sent swapped a couple of weeks ago.

00:13:27:01 - 00:13:44:05
Marty
He reached out and called me after he got control of his phone number back and said Thank you because I convinced him to move his bitcoin office off an exchange and into a multisig set up and with Unchained. And he was very happy and I told him to do that. And then you were tweeting about it this morning.

00:13:44:13 - 00:13:56:21
Marty
A lot of these exchanges, particularly if you have a lot of Bitcoin on them, their security protocol dictates, hey, when you do a video call now with I uh, face generally.

00:13:56:21 - 00:13:57:04
NVK
Oh yeah.

00:13:57:04 - 00:13:57:20
Marty
Analogy.

00:13:58:16 - 00:14:22:21
NVK
I mean this, this this, this video requirement. So some of the some of the companies it's optional, right? Like you said the options some of them are required over a certain amount. I mean this is terrible in so many ways. So first, you know, you are assuming that the video is the person there right now. We know that like with enough effort, somebody can probably fake that out.

00:14:23:21 - 00:14:51:27
NVK
And if they can't quality yet, they're going too soon. And then you as a company say, for example, in chain land, in cars or whatever, are going to have a video of somebody claiming that and not being them and you're going to get sued for the coins, they got taken because they, you know, the security protocol was followed and then you are going to record the video and keep it because you want to keep it for your liability reasons.

00:14:51:27 - 00:15:08:01
NVK
Right. And then that video is going to be stolen from. You bet. Guys are going to know who has bitcoin of certain amounts and is going to go kidnap their families so they can get it, too, because you're going to lose that personal information, right? I mean, it's going to happen 100%. Every company is going to get hacked.

00:15:08:01 - 00:15:42:03
NVK
It's just a matter of time. So, you know, I think I think all these companies have the like a good hearted intentions with with this video stuff. But I think it's extremely misguided and I think it doesn't end well, especially if you're forcing people into doing that. I think it's so absurd. I think this is gonna end up just getting litigated and people are going to lose a lot of money and or people are going to get kidnaped and then it's going to be damages on top of losing all the money.

00:15:42:20 - 00:15:47:17
NVK
And this companies are going to look really bad and then they'll stop doing video it.

00:15:48:16 - 00:16:08:17
Marty
Well, I hope some are more forward thinking than that and for having had conversations with some of them, I know they're thinking about it. I mean, that was literally the first question I ever asked. Dhruv Bansal They came and gave a demo in New York on their their multisig vaults. The first time they watched them. I put 2018, 2017.

00:16:08:27 - 00:16:26:20
Marty
Yeah, it was like 2018, 2019, I think that was like the dickhead in the room, like a deep fix. Their beginning. It was like before they were even as mature as they are now. But had the intuition back then. Like you can't do video verification because these deepfakes are coming and.

00:16:26:26 - 00:16:43:01
NVK
I mean, it's good enough now. Right? And remember, part of the part of the video authentication stuff is so that, you know, if the person is under distress, right. Let's say you have the like you have secret words that you have to say it in video, Right. Which most of these companies don't do.

00:16:44:29 - 00:16:51:14
NVK
And but let's say that they did that you can be beaten up on the side of the computer, giving them the.

00:16:51:15 - 00:16:53:16
NVK
Words, and then they use the AA model.

00:16:53:16 - 00:17:00:08
NVK
To do it. The video with the secret words. Right. And now all checks. So it's so, so.

00:17:00:08 - 00:17:27:15
NVK
Hopeless that way. Like, you know, with the AI now there's really just two things that you can't fake, which is private key public, private key papers and proof of work. Right? So, you know, we have this, this, this the tap signer. Now, it's been used by a few companies where they using a second factor authentication not it uses the bitcoin curve but they're using it just to as a as a thing you have.

00:17:27:26 - 00:17:28:19
Marty
So you became.

00:17:29:15 - 00:18:02:29
NVK
Kind of like a yubikey. Yes, but using the bitcoin curve, which is more respect, more respectful in my opinion. And you know, like it's things like that, right? So you'll be stop signers, extra hard wallets that you can do message signing. You know it could even be a phone call with like special like OTP right. Since the things you were assuming that the voice or video is fake anyways, I mean the media matters less, right?

00:18:03:09 - 00:18:24:25
NVK
So, you know, if you still want to do a phone call, at least you're not running the risk of having your face, you know, talking about the amount of bitcoin you're taking out, It's safer, you know, to have like a phone call where you're doing paper OTP for people. They're going to multiple years as a one time password and you essentially have like a sheet of paper that you fold in half and then you get specific numbers.

00:18:25:09 - 00:18:53:16
NVK
Banks used to do that for large transactions and then you're at least have this interaction over phone. So it's a second channel you gave some pens, you gave some special words, you signed something, and then the money comes out, right? Like, wow, I mean, they do the extra sign, right? But I really think that the current set ups are abhorrent and they're just putting people at risk, especially with the leaking of the video of people talking about their Bitcoin.

00:18:53:21 - 00:18:55:07
NVK
That's just asking for kidnap.

00:18:56:23 - 00:19:03:09
Marty
Do you think this moves back to meet space where to move bitcoin of larger amounts?

00:19:03:09 - 00:19:25:15
NVK
Well, why not in person? I mean, in all, like there's been a lot of bitcoin sort of companies. I did KYC in person. I don't send my any PI documents over digital matters. Right. So I just flew over here. Just do a photocopy of it. Keep it in your office cabinet. It was kind of funny because one of them, the year passed.

00:19:25:19 - 00:19:31:11
NVK
And the new team like they lost that. They actually they probably got shredded because and then.

00:19:31:12 - 00:19:43:20
NVK
They didn't have any information on this account and the account had no name, had nothing on the computer, was just sort of gibberish. That was my requirement. And I had to go like again there to to do the KYC again.

00:19:45:15 - 00:20:08:09
Marty
The lengths people will go to keep their privacy. But I think this stuff is making it very apparent that the need to protect your privacy is only increasing exponentially. And it's something that more people are going to learn about. Because in the world of convenience that we've all grown up in, people don't think about it unless you're a hardcore cypherpunk like yourself.

00:20:08:09 - 00:20:12:06
Marty
You hear things like, Oh, I'm not putting my ID in. Yeah, if I like.

00:20:12:23 - 00:20:25:25
NVK
Yeah, let's let's move back to paper. Like, so for example, phone carriers in Canada now they require that you go to an actual store with your government ID, I think two pieces of I.D..

00:20:26:07 - 00:20:27:00
NVK
Plus like.

00:20:27:00 - 00:20:32:17
NVK
Some other crap and special words in order to to change your sim so people don't get sim swap.

00:20:34:18 - 00:20:41:15
Marty
That would be a great regulation here in the United States as well. And even like with the IDs too, it feels like that whole system's getting d dust.

00:20:41:21 - 00:20:47:08
NVK
But the thing that is that was market demand, by the way, was not even regulation. It was just.

00:20:48:10 - 00:20:51:18
NVK
There is nothing like it damages lawsuits to change the way.

00:20:51:18 - 00:20:52:01
NVK
Business.

00:20:52:01 - 00:20:54:18
NVK
Do business, right. Yeah.

00:20:55:14 - 00:21:13:10
Marty
That's how I mean it. Jeff Booth gets him swapped. Recently, David Bailey was tweeting that a lot of people are getting SIM swapped and the options that are on the market to prevent this. The companies that are claiming to provide a service that is SIM like unsigned swappable.

00:21:14:10 - 00:21:20:10
NVK
Seem a bit. I mean I think they can do your voice now with like 5 seconds of audio is like near-perfect voice.

00:21:20:22 - 00:21:21:12
Marty
Yeah, we're fucked.

00:21:22:05 - 00:21:28:22
NVK
Yeah. No I mean and very I mean the podcasters, I mean they can just say wow, I mean what they can do with the 3 hours.

00:21:29:02 - 00:21:29:12
NVK
Of.

00:21:29:26 - 00:21:31:24
NVK
Episodes of like Bitcoin that review, I.

00:21:31:24 - 00:21:36:18
NVK
Mean it's like brutal, but at least, but, but.

00:21:36:18 - 00:21:50:26
NVK
Then there is the videos too, right? I mean, they can just get pictures and stuff. And then when you're having your call with, you know, one of this companies, it's not as elite room there's always they're like lowering the quality of the image and stuff anyway it's it's it's a disaster.

00:21:51:28 - 00:21:57:04
Marty
Yeah so is I a net benefit or a net positive or a net positive or net negative in your mind.

00:21:57:29 - 00:22:17:17
NVK
Oh it's, it's an absolute net positive. Like it all, it's like, it's like trying to invent electricity or bitcoin or whatever just because it has like, you know, some unwanted consequences. Right. For example, some people feel sorry for four central banks, right? You know, those poor people are they're going to do wants Bitcoin wins it goes to see free.

00:22:17:17 - 00:22:41:24
NVK
I mean it's fantastic tool. You know I, I use it a lot you know nowadays they just like I can I can suck in ripples into unleashed and sort of like analyze code I can you know review documents I can review accounting stuff. You know you still need to be a domain expert of the stuff you're reviewing, right?

00:22:41:24 - 00:22:50:05
NVK
You can't depend on it because it's kind of like a 20 year old mathematician genius who's drunk. Right? That's the current iteration of I.

00:22:52:01 - 00:22:55:22
NVK
So, you know, you need to you need to have your bullshit.

00:22:55:22 - 00:23:03:28
NVK
Detector very high. But but it is very useful. It can it can do correlations in a way that you can't as a human. You need a room of 100 people to do it.

00:23:04:22 - 00:23:24:17
Marty
Yeah. No, we've been leaning into it here at CFTC. It's extremely powerful if you know how to harness it. I mean, let's talk a little bit more about Unleashed Chat. I mean, you spun this up and it's pretty powerful what you can do. How would you juxtapose it to other products on the market? Because it seems like you're leaning in to a lot of the open source models.

00:23:24:27 - 00:23:29:03
Marty
And so in your opinion, where are these models compared to Huh.

00:23:29:12 - 00:23:57:23
NVK
So so the thing is, like the current state of the escape is like, say, like a public open source eyes about like six months behind. We'll see what open the eye launches are. But, you know, the trend is that the open stuff is becoming like it's going to become better than the closed stuff, which is great. And but the problem right now is too, to run anything interesting, any decent infrastructure.

00:23:57:23 - 00:24:25:13
NVK
Right. And so, like, you don't want to be melting your laptop to do like very basic shit. And, and I was looking for someplace that I could upload like, you know, company financial information and it all like legal documents and things that, that would actually be useful as a company to analyze and go over things. And, you know, when I read the terms of service property, I have like, no.

00:24:26:05 - 00:24:27:26
NVK
I'm not offloading my shit here.

00:24:28:14 - 00:25:01:09
NVK
And I so I started running locally and locally was crap. So, you know, I started putting together the system where, you know, you, you can do the like the high quality, like proper infrastructure tools with your data. Right. But private. So you have some privacy there in terms of services. You own your data and we're not going to train the models on your data.

00:25:01:09 - 00:25:23:29
NVK
We can't even see your data. And and we're going to have multiple types of models that are open for you to use. And and we're going to build the tooling, right, so that you can you can do it because what a lot of people don't know is like, you know, there is a lot of tooling you have to build on top of the models.

00:25:23:29 - 00:25:44:12
NVK
So the models understand stuff because these models do understand English, right? Like they don't understand stuff. They just they're just like mathematical statistical models, right. Of things. And you have to essentially vector ized the data and then embed the data into the model and then have the model sort of like understand that thing. And then it sounds to you like it's magic, right?

00:25:45:08 - 00:26:09:27
NVK
But all that tooling needs to be built in order to is closed. So, you know, so we built a lot of that. And so that first of all we could understand roster, right? Like I wanted to, to go and grok Twitter, but Grok is closed and NASA's closed. Grok I think is now open. It's shit too. But, but Twitter is closed so you can't you can grok Twitter really outside of Grok.

00:26:10:24 - 00:26:19:29
NVK
So I'm like, Hey, you know what? Northstar is open, so let's grok Napster and it works beautifully, right? You can walk into only start chat and say, hey, what is what is Lynne thinking about today?

00:26:20:08 - 00:26:26:13
NVK
Right. Anything goes and summarizes what Lynne said today.

00:26:26:22 - 00:26:46:16
NVK
Right. And it'll be very like much better insight than you get out of like, you know, going on Twitter. There's a lot of that stuff that can be done. And, you know, there's a lot to do there as well. I want to see if we can improve search for Northstar as well so that all the Northstar clients can search better.

00:26:48:08 - 00:26:54:27
NVK
Yeah, just sort of playing around, still trying to figure out what to do and you know, no KYC and that's.

00:26:57:06 - 00:26:58:04
Marty
Feels like it's the future.

00:27:00:04 - 00:27:01:25
NVK
Yeah, that's one way of putting it.

00:27:02:13 - 00:27:30:14
Marty
I mean, we've been experimenting it more with the closed source models on our end because the tools that we use to help us on the content side of things only leverage these closed source models. But that's one of our goals in 2024 is to transition to something like an unleashed to do all this. And that requires us to build the tooling that you mentioned connecting transcription services with chat services and all of that.

00:27:30:23 - 00:27:53:18
Marty
But it's there's something there. But in terms of what you're doing on, I think I'm really fascinated to learn more how you're applying it on the business side. Like you mentioned these legal documents, I'm sure you put financial statements in it. I think that's one of the big problems many people like myself are running. Companies have when trying to approach this problem is like, where do you start and how should you be leveraging this?

00:27:53:18 - 00:27:59:18
Marty
Like, how can you leverage it in a way that is most efficient will actually drive results from a business perspective.

00:28:00:14 - 00:28:28:04
NVK
I mean, it's going to differ for every business, right? But I think that the hardest part of a business, especially a small business, right, that doesn't have like, you know, like a room with 50 analysts, is it's trying to understand correlations in your business. Right. Like, you know, is the color of this product, you know, affecting, you know, the sales of this product under what period of time and, you know, things like that.

00:28:28:04 - 00:28:56:03
NVK
And, you know, trying to understand your sales cycles through the year, trying to understand, you know, what your users want because a lot of times to like, you know, what users ask is not necessarily what they want. So trying to understand what people actually want, you know, there is like reviewing like just contracts, reviewing sales documents, like, you know, anywhere you can find an edge.

00:28:56:18 - 00:29:16:24
NVK
And as you play with it, you start to sort of b become better at playing with it as well. So it's kind of like learning how to write or learning how to ride a bike. You you'll start to understand how to use the tool better because it's kind of a tool. It's not general the way that people describe.

00:29:17:25 - 00:29:48:00
NVK
So, for example, you know, like if you go on a leash and you ask them like trivia questions, it's not going to do very well. Those models are not full of trivia crap like open is. They have a lot of mechanical thing for that. It, you know but but it is is super high performance like you know system for people who are like trying to do business right like if you're trying to analyze some serious stuff, trying to analyze code you know and you know how to ask the questions like this, models are very good.

00:29:49:23 - 00:29:56:09
NVK
And yeah, it's just you got to you got to find you got to find your method to the madness.

00:29:57:10 - 00:30:09:18
Marty
Yeah, it's exciting. It's fun to experiment with it. I mean, I've seen it just on our side, on the content side of things. Amount of leverage you get for the amount of dollars that you spend is pretty insane.

00:30:09:23 - 00:30:47:11
NVK
Unfathomable for some. I mean, yeah, you look at some of this, you know, we don't use it. We, you know, Johnny does most of the most of the auto editing for bitcoin that review. But it all like river River FM you know they offer like I clean up of the audio and video stuff and it apparently is very good like in all I've been tempted of pressing the button but you know it really depends on like the the degree to which you once did the editorial position of things but it's getting there.

00:30:47:11 - 00:30:51:20
NVK
I mean, the all the arms and hours that I do, I'm sure any I can take it out.

00:30:52:24 - 00:30:53:21
NVK
It's you know, it's.

00:30:53:21 - 00:30:54:13
NVK
Not that hard.

00:30:55:22 - 00:31:08:24
Marty
Now I see I know Guy Swan uses the audio API that cuts out ums and likes I need it seven years in I'm still re listening to podcasts like goddammit Marty, stop saying like, you know.

00:31:10:01 - 00:31:12:05
NVK
It's okay. Your brain is just taking a pause to think.

00:31:13:07 - 00:31:14:19
NVK
Don't, don't, don't fall.

00:31:14:19 - 00:31:21:03
NVK
For the oval. Lee Some people are just very good and very eloquent and some people aren't. I'm not.

00:31:21:29 - 00:31:26:08
NVK
I don't care. Deal with it. Don't listen to it.

00:31:27:00 - 00:31:31:22
Marty
Well, I mean, you have the excuse. Well, English English isn't your first language, right?

00:31:31:22 - 00:31:35:03
NVK
So yeah, but I do the same in Portuguese.

00:31:35:03 - 00:31:36:18
NVK
Do I do the same in Spanish.

00:31:36:18 - 00:31:41:00
NVK
And the same you know, it's just, you know, every brain.

00:31:41:00 - 00:31:45:09
NVK
Every person's brains slowly off, right? So it's like, deal with it.

00:31:46:00 - 00:32:14:10
Marty
But keeping on this tip, that's something I think we should dive into, because I think these tools are powerful. We're still in the discovery phase of how to leverage them as a company. But thinking about running a company on a Bitcoin standard, I know we talk a lot about this at 1031, but it seems apparent that these tools give you so much leverage that the whole landscape of running a company, particularly a VC backed company, can change this whole idea of growth at all cost.

00:32:14:28 - 00:32:34:24
Marty
Just spend as much money as possible. Hopefully you get a user base and some revenue down the line. Considering where interest rates are and the maturity, these tools at your fingertips, you can make a strong argument that he'd be running a company irresponsibly if you're not leveraging these to help drive returns and revenue in your company.

00:32:35:21 - 00:32:41:14
NVK
Oh, absolutely right. I mean, it's very similar to say, you know, you don't you don't use a computer.

00:32:42:25 - 00:32:48:24
NVK
You know. Yeah, we just we don't like computers. You know, there's no businesses that can do that anymore.

00:32:49:00 - 00:33:00:00
NVK
Even an artisan now needs either himself, a computer or somebody else have a computer to advertise or or to even, like, do his taxes. You know, like, you just you can't.

00:33:01:05 - 00:33:01:24
NVK
You know, the.

00:33:01:29 - 00:33:35:00
NVK
The the government does not accept paper records anymore for audits. It has to be digital. So, you know, I think I think we're going to get to a point soon where and I mean very soon we're like two or three years out of of of having, you know, all your accounting done by by a rate like that, like all your bookkeeping done by a really kind of is for small, small businesses if you're a business or a micro-business or whatever we like.

00:33:35:00 - 00:33:56:03
NVK
I don't know what what does audience consider a small business but let's say a less than $10 billion a year business. You know, I guarantee you that like most of their receipts and all the bookkeeping is done by computer machine learning. And in summary, I know they just don't know it, but that's how QuickBooks is processing all their receipts.

00:33:56:28 - 00:34:14:10
NVK
So it's going to be it's going to be like that, right? Like you just going to keep on having these exponential improvements in all these little areas of the business. So, you know, you used to have a guy that, you know, scanned receipts and puts it in and the right way, you know, that's going to disappear within within like the next two years.

00:34:14:22 - 00:34:48:24
NVK
But for everybody. Right. And then, you know, people link their bank accounts to QuickBooks, right? You're going to do the same like this. Things are just going to get better and better and better so that you need less and less human intervention on these tools and and then eventually you're going to have a, you know, accountant, right? That's going to try to optimize your your tax your tax return for yourself based on all the inputs that he has and the tax in the current tax code of your jurisdiction.

00:34:49:22 - 00:34:54:20
NVK
I can see that happening like in the next three years, and that would be glorious.

00:34:56:04 - 00:35:00:12
NVK
Having a world to know where accounting firms is going to be glorious.

00:35:00:26 - 00:35:24:02
NVK
Especially complex shit. Oh my God. You know, you're talking about companies running like Treasuries and being Bitcoin based. I mean, like, you know, we we earning BTC in USD and we have to do accounting and CAD. So like, you know, and we have to do cap gains on every single entry of USD that is an entry of BTC.

00:35:24:15 - 00:35:35:12
NVK
So like we're running like you know what a bank would have to do in terms of accounting. We're having to do that as a small, like, you know, as a, as a small company. Like it's insane.

00:35:36:25 - 00:35:48:11
Marty
That really is. And that's only the back office application. So think about it from like customer support, um, interacting with your client base, doing stuff like growth marketing.

00:35:49:08 - 00:35:50:15
NVK
Or any kind of is like that.

00:35:50:15 - 00:35:52:00
NVK
So the other day.

00:35:52:00 - 00:35:54:23
NVK
Somebody posted a picture of an airline jet, but.

00:35:56:09 - 00:35:58:07
NVK
It was really funny. So, you know, because you.

00:35:58:07 - 00:36:21:03
NVK
Can teach right the AI essentially all your shit right? Like you can upload right now on an unleashed like your docs and then the thing those are your docs, right? The the problem is this these models are designed to be, you know, sort of general purpose. Right. And, and gaining them is very hard because that's how they're designed.

00:36:22:01 - 00:36:25:23
NVK
So you know, if you big enough on the thing, you know like if you.

00:36:25:23 - 00:36:32:04
NVK
Ask ten times, you know like I don't know like tell me tell me the size of the boobs of whatever celebrity.

00:36:32:04 - 00:36:34:25
NVK
Rate. Like eventually the thing is going to tell you.

00:36:35:05 - 00:36:42:20
NVK
From a, you know, an airliner chat bot that's designed for part and then the screenshot of that doesn't look that good, right?

00:36:44:05 - 00:36:48:08
NVK
So there is a lot of again, it's like it's it's a genius.

00:36:48:08 - 00:36:50:10
NVK
Mathematician, 20 year old was drunk.

00:36:50:12 - 00:36:52:04
NVK
So you just don't know what you're going to get.

00:36:52:29 - 00:37:18:10
Marty
Your products off of like all right so this we just got double C's, whatever. Now I saw a screenshot somebody writing like a react a React program in a I think it was like Expedia or something like that, an airline chat bot, like a write me react up. Yeah. No, that's fascinating. Like you mentioned like 2 to 3 years this all be normalizing.

00:37:18:10 - 00:37:26:10
Marty
How drastically do you think this changes the landscape of startups, businesses in general, the economy?

00:37:26:10 - 00:37:26:19
NVK
I mean.

00:37:27:09 - 00:37:53:05
NVK
The bullish case is that we lose 50% of the workforce, right? So other managerial middle like like the people who are saying that you can say the company, right. Especially big companies, they they might go right because you're not going to need 50 layers of of like manager analyst types. Right. Because when a lot of the positions below them won't need to exist, they won't to exist.

00:37:55:06 - 00:37:56:03
NVK
You know, because.

00:37:56:08 - 00:38:13:03
NVK
Right now think about it this way, right? So like Tim Cook wakes up in the morning and he goes, you know, and, you know, he gets the beautiful report, I'm sure you know, we've all the sales are this crazy breakdowns, this crazy, beautiful correlations of things. And then, you know, in three years from now, he's going to wake up.

00:38:13:03 - 00:38:14:08
NVK
He's going to just ask a question.

00:38:14:22 - 00:38:20:06
NVK
And if he's going to answer it, you know, so whatever sort of like ideas.

00:38:20:06 - 00:38:48:13
NVK
He has, which is really the value, right? That that's that's the human value is the creativity of the question. The inserting of the question is it's an implementation problem. So it's an engineering concern. So, you know, we can resolve those with technology and engineering. We can't resolve the human creativity and sort of completely randomness of thought, you know, through engineering.

00:38:48:25 - 00:39:13:13
NVK
So positions that ask questions, you know, the people who come up with great questions are going to be paid very well. And the people who work through the grind, through Excel to come up with answers are going to not have a job. That's sort of like I think that my at least my framework on how to see the near future and it's going to be fragile, right?

00:39:14:22 - 00:39:23:01
NVK
Because even though the technology may already be there, adoption is still gradual. So but but I think we're going to be looking in a very different landscape in 2 to 3 years.

00:39:24:18 - 00:39:33:18
Marty
Yeah. Do you think at least a digital serfdom or is it an event that sparks the blooming of 10,000 roses?

00:39:34:24 - 00:39:54:10
NVK
I know already. It's kind of like it's all over the place, right? Because you have to centralize improvements in a Yeah, you have the new startups in the AI, you have, you know, the open source API. Like it's kind of like coming from all places because it's so young. There is a lot of innovation to be had that is like ginormous.

00:39:55:27 - 00:40:04:17
NVK
And my theory is that all these large companies release their models open source when they hit a wall. Every time they hit a wall, they go like, Oh, fuck it.

00:40:04:23 - 00:40:05:19
NVK
You know, really open.

00:40:05:19 - 00:40:11:21
NVK
Source. Let the crazy kids sort of improve it. And then we essentially acquired them for hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:40:12:24 - 00:40:13:10
NVK
And then we.

00:40:13:10 - 00:40:15:22
NVK
Improve again and the cycle continues.

00:40:16:16 - 00:40:28:06
Marty
Yeah, it feels like techy beats hitting a wall, like just playing around with it reasonably. It's not as accurate or sophisticated as it was only months ago.

00:40:29:03 - 00:41:00:13
NVK
It could be that their training, a new model like. And it depends on what right like like each type of question needs like a very different type of of like answer framework type of machinery. Let's put it this way. So it really depends like, you know, is a web search. Is it like math questions? Is it, you know, very specific questions related to time series data or whatever?

00:41:00:13 - 00:41:25:05
NVK
Like this? Things are very different. I find it like this models really struggle for access with time series data and that really impedes my the the curiosity that I have with Time series data. But, you know, working on it, see if we can do anything internally, but we don't work on model training, right? Like that's, I mean, little bit, but it's not what we do on Unleashed.

00:41:25:05 - 00:41:44:10
NVK
It's, it's more to tooling around it and essentially like, you know, building all the cold air needs in order to understand noster live, right. That kind of stuff interests me the the the giga brain need for creating new models and that kind of stuff is like a whole other game.

00:41:46:26 - 00:42:12:13
Marty
Yeah, that's, I mean, I think I don't know if you retweeted this or I saw this after seeing her tweet about the deepfakes this morning. But it seems like the way it's going, it seems like is what you've honed in on. An unleashed chat is like at scale, at maturity. The real winners are going to be people just putting UI on these GPU farms in these models and just talking to them, not necessarily the ones that are making the models.

00:42:14:06 - 00:42:36:19
NVK
Yeah, so but the thing that I think a lot of people miss is that like there is the 50% of the problem is not the models and is not the abuse. It's like the tooling around it. Because again, like the eyes don't understand stuff, right? So like you have to, you literally have to write Python so that they can essentially ask kind of like a question.

00:42:36:28 - 00:43:04:06
NVK
It's not quite like that. But essentially the AI is using their Python script to go and search like gnosis, right? And then like you have to figure out very clever ways to vector eyes that data are a very performant ways of doing that so that they so that it can give it that answer back to the right. And then, and then there is like for example a lot of this is companies use multi multi models.

00:43:04:16 - 00:43:22:06
NVK
So you have a critical model that reveals the answer of the model before it returns to the user. So you can improve the quality right of the answer and they make all this opaque. So it looks like magic, right? But there is a lot of shit going on in there.

00:43:22:14 - 00:43:24:04
NVK
So there's many, many models.

00:43:24:10 - 00:43:33:14
NVK
Working very differently. And that's not even to getting to the multimodal stuff where you have the images, generation, image analysis videos and all that other crap.

00:43:34:08 - 00:43:35:26
Marty
So it's very modular on the back end.

00:43:36:18 - 00:43:58:23
NVK
Yes, it's incredibly modular and I think it's going to sprout up a lot of different companies, too. You're going to have companies that all they specialize on is like vector icing, a certain kind of thing, or companies that, you know, create scripts for, you know, some like it's just there's like a huge space out there for people to create companies that are more specialized.

00:43:59:22 - 00:44:15:09
NVK
But but first, we need all this big players to hit walls on on their on their modules, right? And then they start sort of outsourcing some of that. And that that creates the like this this very healthy sort of collection of companies that contribute to the solution.

00:44:16:11 - 00:44:23:10
Marty
Yeah, yeah. I'm not afraid of it. I'm not afraid of AGI. I don't think it's good. I think it's just going to make us better.

00:44:24:28 - 00:44:42:27
NVK
Yeah. I mean, you know, it is what it is. You know, like humans, humans. Could humans maybe be less fat for not having seeds? Yes, but, you know, but cities also produce hospitals and produce, you know, like airplanes. And then if you can't afford to not live in the city and have the city made things, that's even better.

00:44:42:27 - 00:44:43:06
NVK
Right?

00:44:43:24 - 00:44:47:12
NVK
It's you know, the all this these things.

00:44:47:12 - 00:45:00:06
NVK
Are very relative in that sense. Right? You need you need the things that are not necessarily the best for humans in order to great human things, you know, without Bangladesh, you wouldn't have clothing for, you know, $10.

00:45:01:12 - 00:45:23:28
Marty
Yeah, very true. Without cheap compute, it's pretty high leverage. You won't have the cool things that we can build today. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating. I just. I mean, I'll be curious. You think about this in the context children. I think I'm looking at my two young boys like for two almost. It's like, fuck, what's the world going to look like for you?

00:45:24:09 - 00:45:28:18
Marty
What should I teach you now? What actually give you some leverage in the future?

00:45:29:20 - 00:45:54:00
NVK
Yeah, I think about this a lot, right? I have like a four. Almost four in almost six. Right. And you know, we are no screening family, right? So like, they don't have they don't watch videos and stuff. You know, I just started doing Star Wars now where it's like I've been playing the videos that the movie with them on the weekend just like when movie like that's all they watched in terms of screens all week.

00:45:55:16 - 00:45:59:15
NVK
You know, last summer there was no screens whatsoever. I forgot them in the city.

00:46:01:10 - 00:46:01:24
NVK
You know.

00:46:02:15 - 00:46:23:07
NVK
I yeah, I know I'm pretty brutal with the stuff. I don't want them around screens and but but it's like how I give them an edge, right. Like how do I give them access to like B you know, it's through like, play, right? It's like play with Lego and, you know, as soon as I find it's the right time, I don't know what that's going to be.

00:46:23:07 - 00:46:41:03
NVK
I want them to, you know, maybe learn a language with like an AI model on a phone. Right. But it's going to be like a very sort of narrow use of that phone. I don't want them on social media. I don't think it's healthy for humans. And as I can tell for my.

00:46:42:10 - 00:46:44:07
NVK
Mental health, be exposed to Twitter.

00:46:44:15 - 00:47:04:09
NVK
You know, or other things like that. I'm like, I'm fine. But I also grew up without this shit. So it didn't like, fuck up my brain as a kid, right? Like as an adult coming in into Twitter I don't think is as harmful as, you know, like, say, like a kid, like having their brain develop alongside Twitter, right?

00:47:05:07 - 00:47:40:29
NVK
So I don't want them exposed to this things. And and I and I'm, I kind of want them to grow up outside of cities. There were some studies done it was actually quite interesting on like kids that were above the norm in terms of like intelligence and sort of building capacity and creativity. And there were farm kids sort of like did the best, you know, and it's kind of fascinating, right, Because when you think about farm kids, especially when like, you know, 20 years ago, you know, there were two kids exposed to the least amount of technology, the least amount of people, least amount of cultures.

00:47:41:24 - 00:48:01:24
NVK
And you yet to they were the most creative. And I think it's just like giving kids a space in which they don't have to perform. M They don't have to. They they're just like they don't have to have anything to do. Like they're literally like, I want them to get bored.

00:48:02:22 - 00:48:04:10
NVK
And, and from boredom.

00:48:04:10 - 00:48:16:11
NVK
This they learn how to be alone with their brains and sort of like and be capable of like creating things to make themselves less bored. A lot of human invention.

00:48:16:11 - 00:48:21:27
NVK
Came from people being bored. So anyway, it's like, I don't know if that's the right answer. That's what I'm running with.

00:48:23:01 - 00:48:28:04
Marty
I mean, the theory of gravity was Isaac Newton sitting under a tree just getting hit with an apple sitting there.

00:48:28:28 - 00:48:29:14
NVK
There you go.

00:48:29:22 - 00:48:30:15
Marty
How did this happen?

00:48:30:26 - 00:48:32:15
NVK
No, it was very crazy.

00:48:33:00 - 00:48:52:27
Marty
Yeah, we're very similar. It's crazy where we see it. We try to limit screens like a little bit on the weekends, if that. It's been fun to watch my older son play with magna tiles. That's usually what we do it. Yeah, right. At the end of the day, like watching what he builds without any instruction. Like, holy shit, I don't think I could even build that.

00:48:53:17 - 00:49:09:11
NVK
So, like, my kids are not used to videos, right? As much. So like I gave them tablets in the airplane because it's either they take down the flight and they will take down the airplane like they they are Pharaoh, right?

00:49:10:16 - 00:49:12:09
NVK
Or I give them some video.

00:49:12:09 - 00:49:15:11
NVK
It's like that's where I draw the line, right? Like not die in an.

00:49:15:11 - 00:49:18:13
NVK
Airplane so they.

00:49:18:18 - 00:49:30:26
NVK
Can get it off. Like you can see the addiction because they're not used to seeing it either. Like you can't. I it's it's so hard to peel off of their eyes. It's pretty amazing.

00:49:31:07 - 00:50:10:10
Marty
Yeah. I mean, on the same tip, particularly social media corrupting people's brains. How do you think it's affecting Bitcoin development? Um, and what is your what are your broader thoughts on Bitcoin development? Obviously, we have covenant wars going on, not wars, but a lot of discussion around covenants or NLS inscriptions. A big thing. What are your what are your thoughts on excuse me, the intersection of social media and bitcoin development And just more broadly, do we need covenants, thoughts, originals, all that stuff.

00:50:11:03 - 00:50:14:21
NVK
Jesus talk about a mental health and social media pivot.

00:50:14:21 - 00:50:21:02
NVK
There of that stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of, well, you know, as a fifth grader.

00:50:21:20 - 00:50:47:27
NVK
As a bitcoin, I must have an opinion that is complete informed on every single topic. So I do have opinions about that. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, like it's hard because like, I don't want to change bitcoin. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't want to. This idea of bitcoin keeps on changing, but at the same time I do understand the value of confidence.

00:50:48:21 - 00:51:16:15
NVK
We really have confidence. We have we have time. Lock Right. So those transactions are essential to confidence. They they have to wait for a time period before those UTX, those are spendable. So, you know, City V, in my opinion, is the best candidate. It is very, very great, great solution is very limited, but it opens the door to a lot of interesting design space.

00:51:17:29 - 00:51:55:13
NVK
Um, and with that I wanted to upvote because I mean, I don't care too much about the channel, the payment channel stuff. That is one of the reasons why people want confidence. Good. They can have shared articles for lightning that that doesn't interest me much. I'm interested in having on chain vaults because I think that as we evolve in this space and people have normal people have a lot more wealth in extremely, extremely salable asset that's portable, the security risk increases also exponentially.

00:51:56:00 - 00:52:10:06
NVK
So having the actual Bitcoin chain secure not just the ledger and three, but also the the lost city. And how my vault works is a.

00:52:10:06 - 00:52:11:25
NVK
Huge, huge.

00:52:11:25 - 00:52:44:07
NVK
Security improvement. It's like orders of magnitude safer for us, right? So you can have a op vault, uh, sort of like have some velocity there. So, for example, we create a vault that says, you know, you can only spend Max, you know, one BTC per month, right? And if you try to send more, you have to use this other kind of signature, say like a multisig with many more signatures or, you know, like something else.

00:52:44:07 - 00:53:06:13
NVK
And if you do notice that starts to move without your permission because you're lost like a key for something smaller, you have time to go in and vault that in vaulted into a new vault, for example, so that you can you can you can prevent your money to be lost or mitigate by having less loss like, I mean, it is quite amazing.

00:53:06:13 - 00:53:32:27
NVK
I did like I think like about three episodes with Randall and James. James O'Byrne is the author of Upvote. We did three episodes of this in-depth on Bitcoin review. I think people should should definitely check that out. I think that once you get more comfortable with the TV and you get more understanding of the gains we get in security, I think it'll be very hard not to want it.

00:53:35:27 - 00:54:09:22
NVK
But you know, everybody is sort of like, you know, lost and wasting their life with the dick butt pictures. JP Bags on chain discussion. I think it's idiotic for anyone to sort of waste their time with that. There is nothing you can do against the Dick bots. Okay? They're not going away. The people who value them value them for whatever reasons, the same way people value free versus, you know, a Porsche, whatever, you know, value is it's something that is in the eye of the beholder I think is idiotic.

00:54:09:22 - 00:54:35:21
NVK
But whatever people, people twitch their own and you know, and just to discussions are unfortunately completely overlapping each other. And and that's really not helping the conversation. That's that's really not helping us move forward or have a discussion towards a yes or no anyways. But then that's just some confidence, right? We haven't even figure out how we're going to activate a new change to bitcoin.

00:54:35:21 - 00:54:58:28
NVK
Any software to bitcoin, right? The previous no, not taproot. So before Taproot, you know it, was an existential change to Bitcoin, right? We were fighting the two acts and the big blockers. So everybody sort of scrambled and we did, you know, a flag day and flag days is how I think it should be. But then we taproot we had speedy trial speed.

00:54:58:28 - 00:55:14:10
NVK
Trial is kind of like a flag day, but you know but you have like you give the miners a chance to activate before. I don't necessarily like the incentives on that, but, you know, I also don't have a better idea.

00:55:14:12 - 00:55:15:29
NVK
So, you know.

00:55:16:08 - 00:55:41:26
NVK
Kind of stuck with that. So I think the next sophomoric is going to be plagued with with the biggest the discussion is going to be was everybody settles on what is it that you want to support bitcoin for, let's say Steve I think the the biggest hurdle is going to be figuring out how to activate it. I don't I don't think people are prepared for that.

00:55:41:26 - 00:55:45:28
NVK
And and I do think we're going to end up with speedy trial again.

00:55:46:22 - 00:55:47:13
Marty
So I think so.

00:55:48:01 - 00:55:52:14
NVK
Yeah, I think we're going to do speedy trial again. If I if I had to bet I'm not a betting man.

00:55:54:22 - 00:56:00:10
Marty
I thought consensus was that was a terrible activation route. It was a bad precedent to set.

00:56:01:03 - 00:56:02:04
NVK
Maybe that. Oh, I mean, that.

00:56:02:04 - 00:56:06:20
Marty
Precedent set is it's probably the only way to do this.

00:56:07:16 - 00:56:17:28
NVK
It's one of those things, man. It's like, you know, who knows? Maybe. Maybe some galaxy brain comes up with something else. That's my hope. But we can't depend on that right now.

00:56:19:02 - 00:56:47:29
Marty
Though, when you I mean, going back to like, up Vault and Covenants more generally, I think I agree with you. Our vault and CTB seem like the most practical and obvious progressions towards covenants or progressions, just enabling more robust covenants on bitcoin. Because when you hear James explain it particularly like he's clearly convinced that if up vote is enabled, exchange hacks won't happen again.

00:56:48:01 - 00:57:25:02
Marty
You just use deduction from there like you'd want each individual on the network to have the same security as an exchange as these exchanges obviously have the most at risk. And so if you can adopt the security of exchanges as an individual, they'll be very good for you. And going back to how the conversation started, when you consider the $5 wrench attack risks exist the way the protocol set up now, being able to mitigate that, where you just have this social understanding that I've got, my UTX is in a vault.

00:57:25:03 - 00:57:31:09
Marty
Like if you try to $5 wrench me, there's ways in which I can make that very hard for you and just.

00:57:31:28 - 00:57:55:01
NVK
Yeah, I mean, you know, I can totally see I think the world we're going towards, it's very uncomfortable truth to a lot of Bitcoiners is that like there is no UTX for everybody right. That's the first thing. So like, you know, poor people are not going to have Bitcoin that that's like it's horrible, but it's true, right? Like it's just not economically possible.

00:57:55:20 - 00:58:15:22
NVK
So, you know, if we now sort of think that through like, you know, when you look at like, you know, an on chain transaction is going to be equivalent of like a base rate, like you're going to have to settle some serious money to be worth that transaction are due to fees. If Bitcoin is winning, we're going to have a lot of fees.

00:58:17:14 - 00:58:44:11
NVK
And and then lightning is also not for the average person, right. It's going to be for companies to settle between each other or some other layer too, because layer twos by definition are redeemable in Bitcoin on chain. So what does that do? Is it causes this layer twos to be ultimately bound by Bitcoin's throughput, right? So, you know, they can try to compress things.

00:58:44:11 - 00:59:07:24
NVK
You know, they can try to do some shared utensils. That's kind of what they are. So that, you know, you you go last on chain or you essentially. Yeah, it's essentially like you're just having more capacity with those same utensils. But then what we need on top of that is like a layer three, right? And unfortunately that's where inflation happens, right.

00:59:09:27 - 00:59:34:05
NVK
And and you're going to have like things like cash, in my opinion is it's kind of how you solve this is, you know, most people are going to be doing their coffee transactions with cash redeemable to Bitcoin, right. Like you kind of you know, I it's like I hate the free banking stuff, but really it's very hard to escape that because that's that's where efficiencies lie, right?

00:59:34:05 - 00:59:47:20
NVK
I mean, inflation is a efficiency tool, right? Is just that it's impossible not to get abused. You will get abused on every single time it is implemented. So I rather it be implemented at the.

00:59:47:20 - 00:59:49:26
NVK
Edges, then at the.

00:59:49:26 - 01:00:09:06
NVK
Center of the financial system. Right. So anyway, so so this is why is this important. Right. Is because like, you know, we're hardware company, right? We make Bitcoin harder wallets. And if I'm saying that people are not going to use Bitcoin on chain, you know, in five, ten years from now that much why.

01:00:09:06 - 01:00:10:18
NVK
I'm still making harder wallets.

01:00:10:20 - 01:00:38:00
NVK
510 years from now. Well because you're still going to need to create change to create a signature year for this layer twos. You're still going to have to create signatures for people who have UTX. Those and you're going to have to create signatures for the tooling that will create the Zcash, right? That be the mints, that be the the clients.

01:00:38:23 - 01:01:00:01
NVK
And then there is like, how do we go from here to there? Right? We still have to exist in the space of time between, you know, like for a full digital cash world where, you know, we, we still need to keep the stats that we have so we're not robbed until we have better solution.

01:01:01:15 - 01:01:23:28
Marty
Yeah, it's it's crazy watching it play out in real time and a lot of assumptions I had early on in Bitcoin, which should have been more intuitive now in retrospect, like I probably naive, like I think you may have been the first person who really helped me internalize that not everybody is going to own a UTX. So just simply not possible.

01:01:24:11 - 01:01:45:17
Marty
The way the scarce block space works in the world that we live in. But then, yeah, you get into the question. One of the tradeoffs as you go further up the stack and you cash makes a lot of sense to me. Like I was messing around mutinies mint implementation the other day and it works like magic. It just just works.

01:01:46:07 - 01:02:08:20
NVK
Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, so, like, and you have these two, like, awesome competing models, right? They kind of try to attack different things. Maybe they won't, I don't know. But you have the effectiveness of the federated cash solution and you have the, the cashew, which is such like a non federated cash solution. I like e cash, sorry, like cashew.

01:02:08:20 - 01:02:16:16
NVK
Now more just because it's simpler, it's way more deployable. And if the security model is that it can get rugged, then who cares? Might as well be a single.

01:02:17:23 - 01:02:19:15
NVK
Instead of a federation. There are zero.

01:02:20:28 - 01:02:42:24
NVK
Although like there is like, you know, I can see how like bigger entities are going to want to be a federation with Betty. And it, it, it's, it's all over the place. And I think because it's closer to the edges, you can have a lot more types of solutions coexisting. Right? Because it's just more diversity of needs and, you know, different people, different needs kind of thing.

01:02:43:04 - 01:02:59:02
NVK
So but but that's but that's where you make different trade offs, right? Like you're going to get you get perfect privacy with your cash you get you get like a irredeemable bear instrument, you know, and it can be rocked at any time.

01:02:59:22 - 01:03:03:00
NVK
That's that's one of the trade offs, you know, And it's.

01:03:03:00 - 01:03:33:16
NVK
Not Bitcoin, right. Like it's like the mint. The mint is programmatically design to be pegged back or to be redeemable for bitcoin. Right? So you're trusting that software or that promise. But, you know, trust is never going away, right? I mean, you're trusting your computer, you're trusting things to do things. And, you know, like you trust your your neighbors not to burn down your house, your trust, you know, like your your spouse not to run away of your children.

01:03:34:00 - 01:04:00:19
NVK
You know, it's trust is okay. It's just that trust has to be minimized and and properly sort of derisked where it's possible. Right. And and I think a lot of the Twitter causation is is to sort of like zero sum game to a nuanced around this the trust topic. Right it's just say it was thriller is it's almost an.

01:04:01:18 - 01:04:02:13
NVK
Understatement.

01:04:03:24 - 01:04:29:04
Marty
Yeah and then that's the other thing that's become more internalized on me over the years is like there's a spectrum where extremely trust minimize you can be a UTX so purist, if you will like if you don't have the UTX. So you know, control your own private keys, you don't actually own bitcoin. You other end is you hold it on Coinbase, maybe Coinbase within an ETF, maybe the most extreme edge of this.

01:04:29:11 - 01:04:31:16
Marty
Then there's Phenix in the middle.

01:04:32:02 - 01:05:10:27
NVK
In my view, ETFs are layer two, you know, like they are somewhat redeemable on chain, right? Like you have to buy the bitcoin once they have the cash, right? And they have to sell the Bitcoin when you cash out. Right? So and what they, what they're doing and we're seeing now in my view is I you know, I don't I'm not smart enough to do the math on this, but I'm sure the voice from Glassnode maybe could is, you know, we had this this mini this mini pre bull run rally, right.

01:05:11:16 - 01:05:53:11
NVK
And the fees didn't spike. You know why? Because you know, a lot of retail is going to probably go to an ETF first, you know especially big money retail. You know, once they get comfortable with that and they start seeing the benefits, Bitcoin, I think is very, very high likelihood they will take, you know, part of their exposure to bitcoin will be in in quite because you know West is ETFs prove to to right to to the market that they can hold a bitcoin securely with custodians right but under a much better legal structure that the ETFs actually own the Bitcoin Coinbase does that own the Bitcoin that's there, right?

01:05:54:04 - 01:06:24:01
NVK
For the ETFs, you know, I'm not saying, you know, fuck. Brian Right. I don't, I don't like them. But just discussing the framework, the once this ETFs prove to the market that it's possible for an institution to hold actual Bitcoin safely for years with a custodian or with a custodian kind of solution, right? A lot of large entities are just going to go in by themselves and use the same mechanisms, same solutions that the ETFs did.

01:06:24:19 - 01:07:11:22
NVK
They're not idiots. Right? We see this with other assets. So, you know, again, like there is nuance on why ETFs can be good. Like, you know, it's it's like to me they are essentially a backdoor in for Bitcoin into the traditional financial system, right? So they are going to soften the the message and and and the hit that Bitcoin is going to is going to hit on traditional markets because they're going to make it more compatible until better products are out and until the market understands the value of Bitcoin for what it is which is pristine collateral.

01:07:11:22 - 01:07:27:17
NVK
Right. I mean you look at the the, the the bitcoin collateralized loans that we have on the market, like they're all shit. But it's not that you know land in unchain of this company is like are bad. No they're dealing with with.

01:07:28:06 - 01:07:34:16
NVK
Cost of capital that they have because the people lending capital to them don't understand that Bitcoin is amazing right.

01:07:36:07 - 01:07:38:28
NVK
So you know, all these things, it's like timing the market.

01:07:38:28 - 01:07:46:07
NVK
Bitcoin needs more live in the traditional financial system in order to be appreciated for the amazing feat that it is.

01:07:47:19 - 01:08:03:25
Marty
Yeah, I really like Lynn Alden's analogy from a few weeks ago. I forget what show she was on, but likening the ETF to an API in the Bitcoin and all these financial institutions can just plug in to begin to recognize the benefits that you just laid out in terms of it being pristine.

01:08:03:25 - 01:08:28:17
NVK
Yeah, that's that's true. I mean, like, you know, I was this is an analogy I'd be using for four years now. It's like Bitcoin gives you two amazing propositions, right? One is anti debasement like remedy, right? So like you don't get debased. You have a deflationary sort of money. Right? And the other thing is sovereignty, right? You hold your keys.

01:08:29:00 - 01:08:53:01
NVK
So you know, you can choose to get the anti debasement only part of bitcoin right number go up only part of bitcoin by buying ETF. Right. You do lose out on bitcoin's value proposition of like and sensible money. Right. But you still get into debasement by holding that ETF, right? I mean provided the digital rug you don't go away or whatever again because you don't have the sovereignty of that bitcoin.

01:08:54:23 - 01:09:08:14
NVK
So I think that like separating and explaining this new things to people is a lot more interesting than sort of like say, ETF, bad ETF, good. I don't think that that sort of takes us anywhere in that discussion.

01:09:09:05 - 01:09:12:10
Marty
And this is something that Parker and I fight a lot about.

01:09:13:03 - 01:09:16:14
NVK
It's because he is Parker didn't say hi to Parker.

01:09:16:24 - 01:09:45:22
Marty
He's outside. I'll say I don't I help out the studio but now that's one thing Yeah when we're together and trying to orange peel in individual one on one he really focused on 21 million number go up can't be too base is more debt there's too much debt not enough dollars like bitcoin is the solution. They come in and be like obviously this is true but the network side of it is very important to this unstoppable peer to peer digital cash.

01:09:45:22 - 01:09:53:13
Marty
Like what you can do over the network of Bitcoin is extremely useful as well. Part of the fundamental, you know, value prop I.

01:09:53:22 - 01:10:11:10
NVK
I think part of the problem too is like where you coming from this discussion, right? Like if you're talking to like, you know, some major family office that like, you know, they they just have billions of dollars in assets, right. I mean, they have good lawyers, so they're not scared of a bank taking their money as much as we are.

01:10:12:10 - 01:10:16:01
NVK
Right. Because they probably have a better a better contract.

01:10:16:20 - 01:10:17:01
NVK
With.

01:10:17:01 - 01:10:45:28
NVK
Their bank and as some hedge on top of it, too. Right. You know, some banks who offer like some loans in reverse at like zero interest or whatever, if you have certain amount of deposit as as your as your hedge against them failing that transaction. Right. There is ways in which like large money behaves in the financial system that is not quite how you do with your bank card in an ATM.

01:10:46:11 - 01:11:05:05
NVK
Right. These people get robbed last so you know their fear of an ETF sort of like robbing them is a lot lower than than yours. I'm not saying they're right. Right. Because, you know, we all know that the financial system can go to shit. But, you know, they are going to have a different model of risk than you do.

01:11:05:17 - 01:11:27:27
NVK
So, you know, I can't fault them for thinking that maybe holding a seed plate is harder than using a custodian as insured to do something for that. Right. But they will get to the plate. They'll get everybody is going to get to the seed plate eventually. You know, it's a matter of time. They will do it personally. They you know, they're going to do it for their friends.

01:11:28:06 - 01:11:34:07
NVK
It's it's you know, eventually everybody understands the Bitcoin value prop and they get a seed plate.

01:11:35:12 - 01:12:08:04
Marty
Oh, yeah, it's top of funnel at the top of the funnel ETF. They'll get funneled down holding a seed plate, maybe MULTISIG set up, maybe experimenting with the cash. That's yeah, I wanted to go back to cash too, because that was a really cool thing to see this morning. The PRISM team on the roster and so sort of the intersection of all these things but it's Bitcoin cash and now Master leveraging Napster as a reputation system for these mints seems again talking about trade offs and rug risk.

01:12:08:21 - 01:12:16:28
Marty
I think it's a really cool social layer app has beginning to come to fruition. We can rate these these Cashman's how they operate.

01:12:17:29 - 01:12:42:27
NVK
Yeah I mean and I think we're getting to a point now it's kind of like that, that sort of like tweet that I had about Primeau being Venmo for for like, for like me and Bitcoin and eventually Cash. You know, humans need coordination and communication in order to transact, right? Like that. You don't you don't send money without exchanging words.

01:12:42:27 - 01:13:11:26
NVK
First rate about some agreeing on a price. You know, you know, agreeing on terms, you know, maybe discussing the sale or discount, you know, you exchange communication right before you make a payment. And, you know, we only have the Internet as as you understand, like right now. But now we have noster, right. Which is a much more censorship resistant and verifiable communication method.

01:13:12:00 - 01:13:33:18
NVK
Right. So it's not just for Twitter application kind of things. You can do markets on it and all sorts of stuff. But, but the key advancement here is that, you know, unlike a tweet, which is really unverifiable, somebody could be behind my account on Napster. Nobody can be behind my account because it's a key pair. Right. So, you know, they I can't cheat there.

01:13:34:09 - 01:14:03:04
NVK
The the unless I authorize it to sign it with my key. It's very similar to Bitcoin in that sense. So we're making the the the message and censor able and enforceable right. Very similar to Bitcoin in that sense. And and these two things are sort of intertwined into this method of like, you know, first the maybe the first thing we see is a Venmo like thing for a competitor, right?

01:14:04:06 - 01:14:30:17
NVK
So that I can go to your prime or and send your money. But that right. But then I think this is going to evolve into way more complex contracts. You're going to you're going to have, you know, like you can have calendar payments on your pod. It can I mean, it can stream stats. I mean, you look at the the zap stream that you and Matt do for for our chart.

01:14:31:01 - 01:14:54:17
NVK
I mean, it is remarkable, right? That is easier use in which you just go in the thing as a user and and because you have a master key you're just immediately capable of participating in sending money. Like you don't have to ask permission. You don't you don't have to like, you know, an account and, you know, and, and KYC yourself or any of that stuff.

01:14:54:17 - 01:15:22:01
NVK
You're just immediately participating in the in the in the event and I think that you acts on itself is, you know, 100 times better than legacy interactions. Prenups are pretty bitcoin. So I really think that as these things start to align and become have better UX, they're going to take over because it's just it's just matter. Like it's not us trying to like force freedom people.

01:15:22:04 - 01:15:43:00
NVK
They're just better. That's sort of like how you win. It's like a Bitcoin ETF is just better than any other ETF, right? Because it's Bitcoin. So I think the value prop is going to become obvious. Like the bitcoin is best marketing is number go up, right? It's not us trying to convince people so it's the same way with Napster, right?

01:15:43:01 - 01:16:02:01
NVK
Like you have this things and then you're going to have cashew, right. Which is it's just better than any other sort of it's better than lightning. It just transfers. Right. And you can do for very tiny amounts and there is no fees. So, I mean, sure, a mint can charge a fee, but but the point is, like the technology itself doesn't need fees to exist.

01:16:03:01 - 01:16:28:18
NVK
And then you're going to have mint swaps, right? So you have the one in cash talking to another U.S. open to mints sent to each other. And there's no fees on that, right? I mean, technically, you can even remove lightning from the equation there. Now. Yeah, it's things are really going in an awesome direction. I think it's like you can smell the change now as opposed to just battling before for Bitcoin to be recognized.

01:16:29:26 - 01:16:54:13
Marty
And I think that's one of the bigger themes of the last three years, is this recognition that I can go back to like the Web 3.0 meme of last cycle, which the Shack winners really pushed. I think that's something that Bitcoin's Bitcoiners have really come to grok and understand intuitively and begin building on is that Web 3.0 in the way was put forth by Schick.

01:16:54:13 - 01:17:19:05
Marty
Winners may have some kernel of in the intention and of the end result that they want to get at. But you don't need a token, a whole new blockchain all these other corking anti tokenomics involved. They simply just need to combine open source money with these other open source protocols that enable these peer to peer interactions, whether it's communication or value transfer.

01:17:20:13 - 01:17:26:12
NVK
I mean, Kali just announced today his new be Stablecoin.

01:17:26:27 - 01:17:27:05
Marty
Yeah.

01:17:27:21 - 01:17:54:07
NVK
Right. Like and this stuff is all permissionless that's the feint like, see we've, we've federated E Cash you know you're going to have bigger entities using so they're going to need to ask permission right. Or are they going to get shut down, go to jail. But like when you're talking about the simple this the simplicity of cashew and you just going press a button and I have a mint like the you know, governments are not going to go put people in jail in North America because somebody has a mint of $100 in it.

01:17:55:20 - 01:17:59:23
NVK
Right. I mean, realistically speaking with the big pick, a couple of guys to make an example.

01:17:59:23 - 01:18:02:21
NVK
But still like the nothing's going.

01:18:02:21 - 01:18:12:20
NVK
To happen to you if you have $100 mint right now. Imagine 300 million people, 500 million people each with $100 mint retrospective each other like.

01:18:13:15 - 01:18:16:07
NVK
It's like boot. And you know, this.

01:18:16:07 - 01:18:39:13
NVK
Is only possible because of Bitcoin, right? Because you still need a means of store of value, right? Because you're not going to start to value in cashew because that's readable. So that's great for in-transit money, but because you have this ultimate settlement system, right? Like that's Bitcoin, you can do all this crazy things at the edges, right, where it's uncatchable.

01:18:40:13 - 01:18:46:23
NVK
Yeah, Anything is an officer for the coordination of all this stuff. It's crazy, you know?

01:18:46:23 - 01:19:02:27
Marty
Then you get to like the network side of things. Like even if the government did want to go door to door and unplug all of this, I mean, just the nature of how you create a private public key pair on master and how these mints are spun up like you can do it in a way where it's very hard.

01:19:03:27 - 01:19:06:04
NVK
To get me. Marty how is the world drugs going?

01:19:08:11 - 01:19:09:26
Marty
That's so great. They're legalizing them.

01:19:10:19 - 01:19:29:25
NVK
You know? No, seriously, It's like, Oh, it's so hopeless, right? Like, you know, you can't fight the edges as a centralized entity, right? All you can do is compete with the edges, right? So they could try to launch a much better CBD and whatever to try to compete with it. But at the end of the day, if you can't, you're going to lose because you can't fight the edges.

01:19:32:06 - 01:19:47:13
NVK
It's just a survival. It's the perfect sort of like we're arriving, like the stars are starting to align for, for all the right technology that you need to to deploy Bitcoin or a Bitcoin sort of claim to every person on the planet.

01:19:48:19 - 01:19:56:23
Marty
Having been in this for a while, are you surprised with how quickly things are accelerating right now, or did you expect the order of operations to go somewhat like this?

01:19:58:18 - 01:19:59:18
NVK
I don't know. Obviously.

01:20:00:16 - 01:20:30:18
NVK
Like for a minute or two, it's it's you know, it's never it's always it's always slower than you want and faster than you expect. Right. It never is the way you expect it to be. It's it's just you know, we're just here for the ride. We're trying to understand as it goes and try to like, build the products that we need to exist in this paradigm shift.

01:20:32:03 - 01:21:19:25
NVK
I, I, you know, predictions in the space are too hard because all it takes is like some crazy person to was brilliant to invent, you know, something called nuts. And then you have another major leap in the in the financial technology right it is like it is pretty crazy how because design space is so big and we have Bitcoin is just sort of like a central settlement system, you know, we're always just like a minute away from somebody creating something that's completely crazy, amazing, new that solves many problems because the hardest problem has been solved, which is the settlement start of value, right?

01:21:21:01 - 01:21:47:23
NVK
So, so now it really is just up to us to come up with the next thing. The next thing, the next thing. And but, you know, again, like as a person who lives and breathes this and being steeped into the Bitcoin space, it's very easy to to disregard and ignore inertia. Right. And Fiat has inertia, right? It has 100 years now like, you know, dollar like things, fiat things.

01:21:49:07 - 01:22:24:23
NVK
And that's a lot of inertia. It's 8 billion people using it. They have a lot of Lindy and it's not in their interest to like sink the ship, right? It's in the interest of everybody to profit with a change of ship, you know, And as as legacy system, legacy, brilliant legacy, people sort of start to realize that there is the alternative to go towards and profit with, you know, then the incentives align and we see the shift as opposed to just waiting for everything to implode.

01:22:24:23 - 01:22:43:29
NVK
I don't like the implosion sort of path. I think that's just counterproductive is a lot of suffering and I don't want that world for my kids. I'd rather see a world in which, you know, we we shift and people find a way of of like producing value and finding profit changing to a new system.

01:22:44:18 - 01:22:47:13
Marty
Is are you saying we don't need a mandibles world to actually succeed?

01:22:48:20 - 01:23:13:25
NVK
Yes. I really don't think that we're going to go there. I seriously, though, like inertia does not take us there. You know, you can see some of this, right? Like you look at it like when a hurricane destroys a civilized place. How fast things get rebuilt. You know, when we have a financial crisis, you know how fast the the assholes find a way to steal, but also to keep the thing going, right?

01:23:14:06 - 01:23:15:23
NVK
Because, listen, it is in.

01:23:15:23 - 01:23:19:00
NVK
Their interest to not have the Civil War, right? Like.

01:23:19:13 - 01:23:24:19
NVK
You know, at the end of the day, they live there, too. So, you know, as much as this, these.

01:23:24:20 - 01:23:34:03
NVK
Pieces of shit take a little too much from the solution. They do find a way for the system to keep on going and slowly shift somewhere else. It's just that they ran out of ideas.

01:23:35:06 - 01:23:37:10
NVK
But but they, you know, they eventually they'll.

01:23:37:10 - 01:23:45:06
NVK
Get to Bitcoin. And maybe ETFs are one way for example for to not lose their retirement savings on government bonds. Right.

01:23:46:16 - 01:24:01:14
Marty
Yeah I mean you just a headline I read right before we started recording was like apparently Japan one of the two largest pensions. It's got trillions of dollars in it. They're seriously considering allocating the Bitcoin to save, I mean, desperate pension system.

01:24:02:09 - 01:24:46:02
NVK
So historically, you know because Japan is like you know, just printing for so long, they, they they have like there is no way for the Japanese to find gold in Japan. Right. For their Fiat. So you can't work your Fiat in Japan. So what they do that by Treasurys American strategies they buy you know European bonds they buy all kinds of other crap right SoftBank in France invest on FDX and Tesla right and open air and everything else right because there is no so in Japan just announced that they're going to finally for the first time they whole 20 years you know like increase interest rates and like you know I don't know like I

01:24:46:02 - 01:25:11:16
NVK
think it's like one basis point or something, ten days point. I it was little it's totally a token of, of of appreciation. And that literally and you know, people are freaking out right because you know funds borrow in yen and then go gamble with the money right And like you know now that you had a they're going to they're going to change the dynamics of this.

01:25:12:00 - 01:25:54:22
NVK
They're signaling that it will nobody knows where it's going to go. But yeah, but essentially, like the Japanese need a place to park money that produces yield. Right. Because you know gets the base so you need to produce the yield and and you know, maybe the Bitcoin ETF is something like you were saying that maybe they were they're going to do it you know the Quebec pension fund one of them investor in FDX big position quite well but eventually you're going to see you know this this pension funds allocating to bitcoin right because they're not going to able to avoid it because MicroStrategy is going to be a future future 500 company and half of

01:25:54:22 - 01:26:07:06
NVK
the indices that are investable are allocations of that. So they might they might just get some some Bitcoin even if they don't want to. Yeah, financial markets are weird and they're going to get very weird.

01:26:08:01 - 01:26:27:24
Marty
Yeah. No we saw here in the States to the state of Arizona in the state treasury wrote a letter to their legislator like, hey, we really want to get our pensions into bitcoin. So writing this letter to express our intent to enable the pension system within Arizona to allocate to these ETFs, it's happening.

01:26:29:03 - 01:26:36:16
NVK
I mean, listen, you know, BlackRock being one of the worst actors on the planet, they wouldn't get into it if they didn't believe in it.

01:26:37:11 - 01:26:37:21
Marty
Yeah.

01:26:38:21 - 01:26:40:26
NVK
And they're coming for the lion's share of it, too.

01:26:42:15 - 01:26:48:23
Marty
They already have more than MicroStrategy. I think it's BlackRock alone. It's I bet it's not even.

01:26:49:10 - 01:26:54:09
NVK
But I think like isn't it dollar amount versus actual bitcoin amount.

01:26:55:05 - 01:26:57:25
Marty
I it's what does a better market cap.

01:26:57:25 - 01:27:09:04
NVK
It does because I don't think I think until the Phase B change happens I don't think MicroStrategy can book the the the fair of our fair market value of Bitcoin as their market cap.

01:27:11:24 - 01:27:15:16
Marty
So because this is the number of bitcoin, I think they surpassed the number of bitcoin held.

01:27:16:03 - 01:27:31:27
NVK
If only there was a website you could find that out. Let's see. I'm curious now. So MicroStrategy is a how much bitcoin they have over 220 100 and 214,000.

01:27:32:13 - 01:27:32:22
Marty
Yeah.

01:27:34:15 - 01:27:51:10
NVK
And ETFs, ETFs gone. ETFs. What's the what's the name is our share. I bet. I bet. 237 You are correct, sir. They are 20,000 bitcoin over.

01:27:52:25 - 01:27:53:23
Marty
The happened rapidly.

01:27:54:10 - 01:27:58:08
NVK
And and the source of this is solid is Bitcoin. Treasury has done that.

01:28:00:00 - 01:28:07:25
Marty
I mean it's a dot net. It's not the best bet best zero but yeah bitcoin treasuries dot net great site look could check all this out.

01:28:10:20 - 01:28:11:04
NVK
Helps.

01:28:11:27 - 01:28:20:13
Marty
Think how much do you think the ETFs get when all is said and done. I mean I think over a million pretty quickly.

01:28:21:11 - 01:28:49:27
NVK
Yeah I think I think they're going to start to to struggle when they get to like 20% of the bitcoin total because, you know, because the price price increases as they get closer to their 20% rate and and Bitcoin is going to become very, very pricey. It's going to become so absurd that the amount of the amount of like fiat wealth they're going to need in order to buy the Bitcoin is going to be so high, they're like will start to spiral, you know, into hyper tokenization here.

01:28:52:00 - 01:29:29:10
NVK
It could get it could get dicey. I mean, especially if if like, you know, this time doesn't feel like many large coin holders are selling off to buy nice things yet you know, the markets seem super shallow, spot markets super shallow for an asset this size. I think people are going to have a rude awakening in terms of like, you know, how much is going to cost to take a Bitcoin off of a Bitcoin, I think.

01:29:29:10 - 01:29:34:13
Marty
Are you in the same small camp? Do you think we get to $1,000,000 by the end of next year?

01:29:35:19 - 01:29:57:12
NVK
Yeah, I mean, like it's it's all within the realm of possibilities. Know it could also be like it could go down to 30 $30,000. I could be $1,000,000, it could be $10 million. Might be a better, you know, really like, you know, we're dealing with exponential systems here. Like, it's like stuff could rally and get completely out of control, right?

01:29:57:12 - 01:30:20:20
NVK
Like if we have, like, a world craze for it. Totally possible. Like, you know, because it was very local. Right? Most of the rallies are very local. It's like, you know, it's like a group of people, you know, it's mainstream like a little bit, but it's not like, you know, every day on the news, oh, my God, You know, you know, everybody's putting all their savings into Bitcoin, right?

01:30:20:20 - 01:30:33:28
NVK
Like and then like banks freaking out and buy it and, you know, every fucking hedge fund and, you know, like, things could get completely crazy. Like, not impossible. Yeah.

01:30:35:01 - 01:30:37:03
Marty
I'm ready. Bring it, bring it.

01:30:37:04 - 01:30:43:09
NVK
It's going to be fun regardless. You know, 30,000 Bitcoin will also be a lot of fun too. Great stocking.

01:30:43:23 - 01:30:44:29
Marty
Great stocking opportunity.

01:30:46:03 - 01:30:47:29
NVK
It's it's like a win win.

01:30:47:29 - 01:30:48:17
NVK
I mean, you know.

01:30:48:20 - 01:31:03:21
NVK
It's a weird space to be like, you love either side. It's like, I don't think that ever happened before. We only have this because it's a deflationary fix supply system. Otherwise we would be screaming, you know the price, please only up.

01:31:05:17 - 01:31:16:07
Marty
If it's going to destroy the economy. You can't have an economy run on the currency with fixed supply. Who will spend? People will hoard.

01:31:17:19 - 01:31:40:25
NVK
Things will be. I know. I think I think, you know, fasting is going to become more common because nobody is going to eat anymore at all. Forever. Right. And and also people are just going to learn how to build caves, cave houses. So because you're not going to shelter anymore and we're not going to have the Internet anymore and we're not going to have it, but we're definitely going to stop traveling.

01:31:41:12 - 01:31:47:02
NVK
You know, the green people should love Bitcoin, you know, because we're going to just stop the economy.

01:31:48:06 - 01:32:06:01
Marty
Yeah, we're going to hoard over Bitcoin, soak up a little bit of energy and just not go spend, no more plastics, nothing. We should I mean, we are I mean, we are mammals. We should just be like, why are we even wearing clothes? Which is this? I'll be walking around naked unless it's called out.

01:32:07:09 - 01:32:34:23
NVK
I mean, living in the tropics does like how some of that know I can at least just be in shorts all day. No, no shoes. But what I'm really disappointed at is the fact that we did not fulfill the promise. Bitcoin's not using the world's energy as authorized by the Norwegian was out today. By 2020, we should have been using all the energy on the planet, and we're still not boiling the oceans, too.

01:32:34:29 - 01:32:40:04
NVK
I mean, there is places on Earth that the ocean is very cold that I'm very disappointed. That is not a bathtub.

01:32:41:05 - 01:32:46:22
Marty
Yeah, people in California should not have to wear wetsuits to go surfing. It should be able to bare back.

01:32:46:25 - 01:32:51:08
NVK
Before global warming, man. You know, like seriously, especially Canadians.

01:32:51:29 - 01:32:54:09
Marty
Bring back the megafauna. That's what I want to see.

01:32:55:04 - 01:32:55:18
NVK
That's right.

01:32:56:08 - 01:33:06:09
Marty
More oxygen. It's counterintuitive. It's like more CO2. It produces more oxygen. You get bigger plants, warmer climate. I like the tropics, you know.

01:33:06:28 - 01:33:22:08
NVK
Yes. I mean, on the plus side, you know, the all the people who are against human flourishing, it didn't make it. So this is going to resolve itself in 50 years. We're going to Bitcoin. You know, no more people who don't like humans and the really cool virgin.

01:33:23:14 - 01:33:24:10
Marty
It's a beautiful thing.

01:33:25:22 - 01:33:28:11
NVK
It really is. You'll make babies if you're not the optimist.

01:33:28:22 - 01:33:38:01
Marty
Yeah. On that note, what are you most excited for? Obviously, we just said the price of Bitcoin is going to $2 million.

01:33:38:21 - 01:33:38:29
NVK
Why?

01:33:39:04 - 01:34:09:03
NVK
Why does not faze me anymore? Like, honestly, that is not part of my scope of things. I care. I think. I think a you know, like in other stuff we're working on, I just can't fucking wait to ship stuff. It's like, you know, it's, it's like the grind of hardware and ramping production. You know, I can't make enough devices, you know, there is too many new bitcoiners who cannot clearly hold their seeds.

01:34:09:03 - 01:34:10:10
NVK
Buying all these devices.

01:34:11:05 - 01:34:12:16
NVK
Seems to me it's.

01:34:12:17 - 01:34:28:20
NVK
Like my my sales numbers do not agree with this trend that it's too hard to self-custody Bitcoin. And yeah, man, I don't know. I think I think though the world is swinging a little bit politically, which helps, you know.

01:34:31:01 - 01:34:32:00
Marty
We're going to get your news.

01:34:33:04 - 01:34:52:06
NVK
Oh, yeah, I know. Mean that guy, the guy is is this done? I mean, you never say never, right? I mean, maybe they come up with another or something. You know, the guy finds a way of sticking around. He's a parasite. Like a true parasite. He's governing with a minority government in a way that's very unheard of for cap.

01:34:54:10 - 01:35:16:25
NVK
But yeah, that parasite is going to be out soon. You know, it's still like, you know, the country of kind of like commie leaning people. So it's not like it's going to become like, you know, like, you know, guns and cheeseburgers, you know, the next day. You know that America. Exactly. But but actually, it's it's going to trend towards something better.

01:35:17:05 - 01:35:19:03
Marty
Should we come annex Alberta at least.

01:35:20:19 - 01:35:24:10
NVK
Alberta doesn't have water access or border so it's kind of a problem.

01:35:25:07 - 01:35:26:03
Marty
A lot of oil though.

01:35:27:19 - 01:35:51:16
NVK
Canada is the second largest reserves of water on the planet. It could be. I keep on saying to this, but it's the best country to be economy. They could just start drilling like Norway does and pay for all the commie shit that they want. They can offer like in-home sex sterilization, surgeries for free with oil money. Anyone who press the busses, they come to your house.

01:35:53:06 - 01:35:53:29
NVK
Or they kill you.

01:35:55:23 - 01:36:00:25
NVK
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, they're shit like it's so out of control.

01:36:00:27 - 01:36:03:00
Marty
Taking the money program to a whole new level.

01:36:03:19 - 01:36:23:29
NVK
Now that this people really. It's evil, man. It's like it's actually. I think it's you who has that saying demons like this, people are just like they will cross the line to just you would do. It is easier to buy heroin legally in Canada than it is to buy raw milk.

01:36:25:25 - 01:36:26:28
Marty
Yeah, that's pretty fucked up.

01:36:27:28 - 01:36:48:03
NVK
Like, think about that for a second, okay? And it's not an exaggeration. It's actually like. Like a true statement. And I've been trying to buy. You have to essentially beg some farmer to give it to you, and maybe you'll do it because they are scared to death of going to jail. But. But heroin is available now everywhere.

01:36:49:16 - 01:36:50:26
Marty
What do you need to do to get Herold.

01:36:51:25 - 01:36:56:13
NVK
You just walk into a clinic and you say, Give me this, It's what I like, and then they'll give you something.

01:36:58:06 - 01:36:59:15
Marty
Yeah. Truly demonic.

01:37:00:03 - 01:37:18:00
NVK
No, no. They're spending millions of dollars branding the syringes with, the name of the city. Now, it's amazing. It's Bizarro world. It is the thing like that. Like they're making, like, legal for you, for for people with mental health issues to kill themselves.

01:37:18:08 - 01:37:20:19
NVK
But the force is there. It is.

01:37:20:25 - 01:37:21:16
NVK
Psycho.

01:37:22:27 - 01:37:24:24
NVK
You ask them if they want to kill themselves.

01:37:24:24 - 01:37:28:19
NVK
Of course. Yes. Well, it's not that complicated.

01:37:28:25 - 01:37:32:00
Marty
Like 5% of deaths in Canada were part of the made.

01:37:32:00 - 01:38:05:03
NVK
Program last year. I know they're going to ramp it up, you know, and then like, you know, you bankrupt the country. You know, you fuck up the culture, you make it into a crummy shithole all in ten years. But and then you offer people suicide. It's you don't know what. But what's amazing to me is that they also we also have the fastest immigration policy on the planet, Right?

01:38:05:06 - 01:38:33:18
NVK
I'm fully pro-immigration, especially in the country. Doesn't make babies. And the immigrants are a lot more based than the locals. So, you know, but the problem is, like there is not enough infrastructure, especially the place. Right. So so the country is like adding a million people a year. You know, being a country that only has, you know, it was 40 million, 37 million people just like ten years ago.

01:38:34:23 - 01:38:40:24
NVK
And then where 41 million people were targeted, 41 million people like, dude, that's a lot of people.

01:38:41:06 - 01:38:42:09
Marty
It's 10% growth.

01:38:43:04 - 01:38:55:02
NVK
It's insane. You know, there is no infrastructure to handle that even in a place that's not calling me. Right. You can't build that fast, especially, you know, with all the fucking retarded regulations on everything.

01:38:56:07 - 01:39:00:01
Marty
So clip this, you know, to 200 people in line at a liquor store to get a job.

01:39:00:29 - 01:39:18:17
NVK
Yeah, that's that's everywhere. But, you know, it's the same in America too. Like, you know, America has pockets of freedom. But at the end of the day, I always see it like it's like y real estate is a shit point on it. Well, stop paying on it and wait to see how long it takes for them to show it to you how much is not yours.

01:39:19:07 - 01:39:19:21
NVK
You know.

01:39:20:22 - 01:39:27:01
NVK
It's like, you know, in any densely populated place, it's going to be more complicated to write.

01:39:27:24 - 01:39:45:00
Marty
Yeah, but I do. I do agree with you. I do think the pendulum is swinging. I think Bizarro World has hit such a point where people who were part of the silent majority and were just like, I'm just going to go about my life. Like they are literally not able to avoid it anymore and they're confronted with it in their everyday lives.

01:39:45:14 - 01:39:46:16
Marty
And let's say, well.

01:39:46:20 - 01:40:10:03
NVK
I mean, you know, when we had, you know, money printing, they made everybody rich between quotes, right. For, you know, for a couple of years during COVID, everybody felt rich, right? Everybody was buying all kinds of shit. I mean, you know, it was Amazon boxes like to the brim during COVID, you know, it's very easy to vote for all this idiocy.

01:40:10:11 - 01:40:34:10
NVK
Right. When when like, you know, you essentially feel like, you know, money is infinite. But once everybody is starting to get now kicked in the balls because, you know, their mortgages are like three times what they used to pay per month, right. So they're all broke. In Canada, mortgages reopen every five years. Right. Because they don't the you know.

01:40:34:20 - 01:40:35:28
Marty
You know the 30 year fixed.

01:40:37:10 - 01:41:09:02
NVK
I know it's insane. It's kind of a 30 year fix. It doesn't work in 30 years. But it's amazing. Good for you guys. Barry Jones So anyway, so like, you know, people are broke when people when people are confronted with economic reality, they start making better economic decisions. Right? And all of a sudden, you know, maybe we shouldn't have free sex surgeries for kids, you know, because health care is the socialized.

01:41:09:02 - 01:41:27:11
NVK
Right. So even if you believe that that's supposed to happen, which you're a monster, you still maybe want to share that versus the heart surgery. Right? People start making these economic calculations with a little bit more sanity and and starts to put things in a better direction, right?

01:41:27:28 - 01:41:38:03
Marty
Yeah, because opportunity cost is more prevalent and in your face, it's like, oh, do I want to cut off the 16 year old's boobs, help somebody get a heart surgery?

01:41:39:10 - 01:41:45:08
NVK
Yeah, exactly right. Like, it's it's not a very complicated calculation now for most people.

01:41:46:07 - 01:41:47:23
NVK
For some people, it's still a struggle.

01:41:47:23 - 01:41:51:00
NVK
But it's amazing.

01:41:51:11 - 01:41:53:22
Marty
It's crazy that we're even having this conversation.

01:41:54:09 - 01:41:55:07
NVK
It is pretty insane.

01:41:55:14 - 01:42:14:00
Marty
I went to a doctor's appointment this morning. Dermatologist Pale skin Irishman here. I got to get my skin checked, spent a lot of time in the sun during the summers and melanoma runs in my family. So it's a good get skin checks once or twice a year. Did that this morning. And Phillip hasn't.

01:42:14:24 - 01:42:15:27
NVK
Stopped using sunscreen?

01:42:16:07 - 01:42:33:01
Marty
No, I don't. I use the SPF, the long shirts and that the filling out the form the doctor, it's literally like what's your gender check mail. I'm like, all right, what's next here? It's like, what are your pronouns? I was like, What the fuck? I just I just checked.

01:42:33:01 - 01:42:33:19
NVK
It's everywhere.

01:42:33:26 - 01:42:38:28
Marty
It's like, What's your preferred? I was like, I just did not. I was like, left it blank. It's like, I'm not participating.

01:42:38:28 - 01:42:42:19
NVK
Canada You can get a passport that says X. What is.

01:42:42:19 - 01:42:43:25
Marty
X zero?

01:42:44:11 - 01:43:07:03
NVK
No, no. I mean, like, listen, that's cool and I don't give a shit. Remove. Let's remove passports. That would be the correct move. But. But yeah. Like no, the problem that I have is, you know, if people want to be retired or whatever. So my problem, but like it's the cost, you know, like every time they want to change a government form cost millions of dollars.

01:43:08:15 - 01:43:11:24
NVK
And this should compound this on everything. Yeah.

01:43:12:06 - 01:43:16:14
Marty
I can't go to the dermatologist without them asking for your preferred pronouns.

01:43:16:27 - 01:43:30:02
NVK
So I mean, you know, like, think it's like if I ask my two year old, like my three year old. What what, what is he today? He's going to probably see like a lion or they're like, do it right. Take him for like lion surgery.

01:43:32:21 - 01:43:33:11
NVK
It's all about my.

01:43:34:06 - 01:43:47:22
Marty
My four year old's in a big good guy versus bad bad guy stage. So I never know. I show from work and I I find out if he wants to be a good guy or a bad guy. He's a gone the bad guy today. You're the good guy. Then he hands me a sword and we fight him.

01:43:48:11 - 01:44:07:07
NVK
So funny. My kids are really into Darth Vader. They don't like Luke us. Yeah. No, they're like, you know, because they asked Daddy, you know, do you want to be Do you want to be a Jedi or do you want to be a Sith Lord? I'm like, I am a mandalorian. I don't take sides in this battle. You're, you.

01:44:07:07 - 01:44:09:01
NVK
Know, mercenary.

01:44:09:08 - 01:44:17:16
NVK
Okay? Like, I don't want to participate and say I just keep on banging that message, you know, like, I don't want to take part in this fight. That's their problem.

01:44:18:20 - 01:44:22:28
Marty
Yeah. Red team versus blue team. I don't. I don't participate in that. I know. I'm a.

01:44:22:28 - 01:44:25:01
NVK
Hitman. That's right. That's right.

01:44:25:01 - 01:44:26:11
Marty
And I don't have allegiances.

01:44:27:10 - 01:44:32:20
NVK
That's right. Oh, man. It's a you know who's the terrorist is whoever you ask the other side, right?

01:44:33:01 - 01:44:41:22
Marty
Yeah. Yeah. Government, maybe the biggest, largest terrorist organization humanity's ever seen.

01:44:41:22 - 01:44:44:22
NVK
It is. I mean, they killed more people than anybody else.

01:44:45:08 - 01:44:49:16
Marty
Yeah, Yeah, that's. We're going to win, though. We're going to win. We're winning. You always.

01:44:49:16 - 01:44:50:04
NVK
Are winning.

01:44:50:05 - 01:44:55:15
Marty
You get pissed over with it. We're going to win. Why we? Why we are winning over. We're going to win.

01:44:56:23 - 01:45:18:11
NVK
Because we're really winning. Like, look at this timeline is insane. You know, like, I mean, it really is insane. Like, you know, you know, you had a dude seen by Bitcoin of a sign and like, a fad, like, like a Congress hearing in all, like we're really there, dude. It's like, you know, you can't you can't kill an idea, right?

01:45:18:13 - 01:45:31:19
NVK
And the idea is spreading and, you know, like the queens making everybody better. It is it life is better, like quantitatively and qualitatively better.

01:45:32:23 - 01:45:38:20
Marty
And they don't realize it yet. They're they're playing our game now. They think we're in there with us. They're in here.

01:45:38:20 - 01:45:40:21
NVK
They are on our meme sphere now.

01:45:40:23 - 01:45:42:15
NVK
You know, like, look at this.

01:45:42:15 - 01:45:45:15
NVK
Morons trying to meme against us. It's hilarious.

01:45:46:22 - 01:45:48:10
NVK
Like, it is so.

01:45:48:10 - 01:45:48:26
NVK
Funny.

01:45:49:05 - 01:45:50:05
NVK
Like there's just.

01:45:50:23 - 01:46:02:16
NVK
You know, like, you know that that meme, the left camp meme. Yeah. You know, but it's the left or the right doesn't matter. Like government people like, you know, like the commies of of last hour, right? They killed me.

01:46:03:20 - 01:46:19:28
Marty
Yeah. I saw a screenshot from 410 today is probably from years ago, but there were like the anon on four channels claiming to be part of one of the government agencies was like, keep it up. They're literally having meetings where they're trying to create means that Pepe the Frog.

01:46:22:19 - 01:46:24:02
NVK
To make it. So it's amazing.

01:46:25:11 - 01:46:32:29
NVK
It really is amazing when you see that when the guy who made the documentary had to lie about most things because there was evidence, because it's a meme.

01:46:34:19 - 01:46:35:16
Marty
I did not see that.

01:46:36:15 - 01:46:54:25
NVK
Jane. I'm just like, yeah, there was a guy like, Yeah, I think it might have been even Canadian documentary about Cunanan, you know, the guy who really like, you know, some some lefty crazy person went after them kind of thing. Yeah, I'm going to expose Cunanan right And then it turned out there was all the this was manufactured.

01:46:57:01 - 01:47:00:01
Marty
Against Cunanan or he like dug deep and was like, oh, wait.

01:47:00:15 - 01:47:09:23
NVK
No, no, he was against Cunanan. Right. And then and but he wanted to expose Cunanan for his evil thing. And then he had some manufactured evidence that they even exist.

01:47:12:24 - 01:47:15:26
Marty
And they can't do it. And it frustrates them, which makes me.

01:47:16:00 - 01:47:31:26
NVK
It really does. I think that's the biggest like that's that's why it's like flare ups of anger. All this shit is because, like, they just they can't fight like, you know, like physics, like, you can't, you can't argue the rock, like.

01:47:32:07 - 01:47:51:04
Marty
You know. And I think that's the most exciting thing about this is I think Bitcoiners particularly but more people are beginning to recognize this like the biggest or the best, most effective way to defeat the centralizing forces in our life is literally ridicule them to death.

01:47:51:14 - 01:47:51:27
NVK
Yes.

01:47:52:06 - 01:48:01:03
Marty
They get pissed off by that and like it actually is approachable to people don't understand the problem. You make a joke about it and you're like, Oh, this is pretty funny and fucked up.

01:48:02:19 - 01:48:10:18
NVK
Yeah, I mean, this, this space, it's like, remember the campaign the Greenpeace had changed the code.

01:48:11:13 - 01:48:12:00
Marty
Yes.

01:48:12:13 - 01:48:13:01
NVK
Right. It's like.

01:48:13:01 - 01:48:14:26
Marty
Okay, change the code. Yeah, do it.

01:48:14:26 - 01:48:18:12
NVK
Okay, do it. Please do it right. Like, they don't.

01:48:18:12 - 01:48:23:06
NVK
Understand that. Like, you can't change everybody else's code if you change the code.

01:48:23:18 - 01:48:24:13
Marty
No. And if it's a.

01:48:24:24 - 01:48:29:07
NVK
This is the same syllable arguing of Iraq, right? Like there is nothing you can do now.

01:48:29:12 - 01:48:45:02
Marty
And all they had to do was go watch Michael Goldstein's 2019 bip block boom presentation of meme warfare. They would have recognized that. They put that out there. All we're going to do is accept and project. Yes, you can change the code. Go do it, please.

01:48:45:17 - 01:48:57:18
NVK
Yes. It's so that by the way, if people have have a Nazi, that's probably one of the best presentations in Bitcoin ever. And it was it became a meme itself too.

01:48:57:23 - 01:49:00:12
NVK
Before it was even released. Yeah, there was there.

01:49:00:12 - 01:49:02:14
NVK
Was like a whole drum about how the.

01:49:02:26 - 01:49:13:21
Marty
Brian Bishop was trans. Brian Bishop was transcribing it and putting it on his website and people were reading it like an hour after he gave the presentation without it being really is taken out of context.

01:49:14:13 - 01:49:22:09
NVK
Yes, it was. The meme precedes itself like it can't. It's amazing. It really is the best timeline, man. We live in the best timeline.

01:49:22:21 - 01:49:32:00
Marty
Yeah. And this will be the second episode in a row which we ended on this phrase, Don't let your meme be dreams. We can actualize our memes into reality.

01:49:32:11 - 01:49:33:11
NVK
Even into existence.

01:49:34:01 - 01:50:03:21
Marty
Yes. Keep doing it. You keep meaning self-custody better practices, good approaches to bitcoin and life into the world. You're doing an incredible job again. No, no to blow smoke up your ass. But playing around with the Q the last couple of weeks is the best bitcoin hardware wallet that I've ever interacted with. Just for it. Maybe just for me, but the UX, the battery pack, NFC, the intuitive setup process.

01:50:03:21 - 01:50:06:13
Marty
It was an incredible experience.

01:50:07:04 - 01:50:21:06
NVK
I really appreciate it, man. That was a there was a product of like I was going for plastic, you know, what is what is the slogan of Bitcoin? I really? Once we thought of that, it looks like that. Yeah.

01:50:21:19 - 01:50:39:12
Marty
You have the password manager inside like it's a you can tell how much time and effort went into it. And if you're out there listening you should get one and use it because again, this high quality hardware wallet I've used most intuitive too.

01:50:40:23 - 01:50:42:16
NVK
And I appreciate that. Yeah.

01:50:44:04 - 01:50:45:01
Marty
Where should we send the freaks.

01:50:46:28 - 01:50:59:04
NVK
Go by and all the freaks Just just go check out the queue. Go check out the mark for it's not going anywhere. Go check out top signers. Want to play a stuff for me. There is a million things we make.

01:50:59:29 - 01:51:22:16
Marty
You should have been at the take over because you would have been like a kid in the candy shop. We demoed the SATs card to somebody. It was here and the way we demoed it is he we gave him a SATs card, 1031 SATs card. He clicked it on the back of his phone and pulled out the address and I pulled out my tap signer and had a wallet undone.

01:51:22:16 - 01:51:31:14
Marty
Chuck connected my tap signer and I signed the broadcast transaction. From now on, Chuck using Tap Signer to his SATs card. His mind was blown. Oh.

01:51:32:04 - 01:51:58:08
NVK
That's awesome. Yeah, that's that's really great. Yeah, man. You know, it's we're going to play. We're going to figure out more things. We're going to make it as easy as possible and as secure as possible. Security before anything else. You know, it's I was actually talking to somebody about this. It's like, what's the most important thing now? Losing the SATs, You really have that's more important than being easy, being free, being anything.

01:51:58:19 - 01:52:15:28
NVK
Right. And then and then make it as easy as possible is the second thing. Right? So we're working on it. And, you know, we take the feedback very seriously. You know, hopefully, hopefully nothing looks like what we have now in five years from now. It all is just just perfect.

01:52:17:04 - 01:52:28:21
Marty
Yeah. And you've got to get brand. I want to buy all the products as they come out. You got one of these right here. That's one thing. It's a sticky brand. It's very easy to keep buying the products.

01:52:30:05 - 01:52:39:11
NVK
Well, you know, you got to find the to find the funds to to develop more things. Right. This is our hobby. This is what we love to do. So it's like it's very self fulfilling.

01:52:40:28 - 01:52:45:08
Marty
Well Keep doing it. Keep fulfilling yourself. Get your ass down in.

01:52:45:25 - 01:52:49:17
NVK
And so I do. I do want to go. It's been a while.

01:52:50:13 - 01:52:56:14
Marty
It's going to be good. Going to be good. Spring here. Vibes are high. Parker Lewis has some some questions to ask you in person.

01:52:57:05 - 01:52:59:21
NVK
So it sounds good. All right. Good stuff.

01:53:00:20 - 01:53:03:20
Marty
Keep rushing it. Peace, love, freaks.