This podcast explores Bitcoin's rise past $100K, its role as a geopolitical tool, a multigenerational asset, and its integration into traditional finance.
This podcast episode explores Bitcoin's growing role in the global financial landscape, examining its rise beyond a speculative asset to a geopolitical tool and multigenerational wealth vehicle. After breaking the $100,000 mark, Bitcoin's potential as a superior savings technology in a volatile economy is discussed, with leaders like Russia's President Putin acknowledging its unstoppable nature. Rumors of sovereign wealth funds considering Bitcoin allocations and U.S. legislation like the Bitcoin Strategic Reserve Act highlight its increasing adoption by nation-states to counter BRICS’ gold-backed currency strategies. The episode also covers Bitcoin's integration into traditional financial products like real estate loans, emphasizing its unique qualities as collateral. Additionally, it aligns Bitcoin with the FIRE movement, showcasing it as a superior savings vehicle compared to index funds, while stressing the importance of robust self-custody solutions for secure, multigenerational wealth management.
This episode paints a picture of Bitcoin as a transformative force, reshaping global finance, personal wealth management, and geopolitical strategies. From crossing the $100,000 mark to gaining traction as a tool for sovereign reserves, Bitcoin’s trajectory is framed as a pivotal moment in financial history. The podcast underscores the need for secure custody solutions, multigenerational planning, and education to navigate Bitcoin’s integration into both personal portfolios and national strategies. As adoption accelerates, Bitcoin's potential to redefine the financial ecosystem becomes ever more apparent.
0:00 - Intro
0:47 - Marty on Tucker and Andrew Hohns on CNBC
4:10 - Guiding hodlers and pioneering collab custody
14:15 - Bitkey
15:05 - 100k changes the frame
17:57 - Where does Unchained go next?
21:38 - Zaprite & SOTE
23:11 - Large capital bringing in the supercycle
27:08 - FIRE framework
41:41 - Signature white glove service
47:12 - The bitcoin rabbit hole cascade
49:26 - Lloyd Blankfein on bitcoin in geopolitics
52:54 - Bitcoin credit products
55:11 - Unchained event
(00:00) the stock market will continue to go down toward zero BTC over a long time Horizon we just broke out into a brand new fresh low of the S&P versus Bitcoin when you cross 100,000 a million doesn't seem all that far off in the same way that when you cross 10,000 100,000 didn't quite seem as far off how do I not lose my Bitcoin because I'm holding it myself and it's a bare asset and if I mess it up it's gone and there's nothing you can do to get it back it doesn't matter what your will or your trust documentation says if you can't access
(00:27) the Bitcoin or your family doesn't know what to do then the Bitcoin can't actually move the first few months and year with a lot of our clients is spent really diving deep on those two questions po when he was saying on stage yesterday was just like a slight like Hey we're paying attention to bitcoin too like we can play in that game yeah okay you guys those those CNBC interviews must be like so much easier to do in person though like you you've done it before right you're like looking into the camera and can't see what
(00:56) you're doing oh we're live yeah oh hey yeah I I've done it with Tu Tucker Carlson I've done a couple of the blaze uh TV interviews as well all remote Tucker was insane because I was in Florida with my family this is a great story I don't think I've told this on the podcast before we've got sitting down with Trey sellers remote rip first first rip in sometime we've done Rabbit Hole recap in The Parlor here at pubkey bar in media house in New York City but Tucker the story of Tucker was incredible they called me that morning was truck
(01:32) Canadian trucker getting their coinbase account shut down and I'd been talking to one of Tucker's producers for a few few months educating her about Bitcoin when Bitcoin stories would come up she text me like what should we cover here I'd be like oh this that morning I thought it was the same thing Canadian truckers like what should we be focusing on like sent her a few thoughts she was like do you want to come on the show and talk about it I was like I'd love to but I'm in Florida she was like don't worry we'll send a
(01:57) production band to your Airbnb and so that's what it was it was my father-in-law's who I love to death love my father-in-law to death a uh not a big fan of Tuck for the record for a big fan of Tucker Carlson it was his 72nd birthday and we were having dinner that night and I had to go to my father-in-law on a 7 72nd birthday and say Hey sir thank you for giving me your daughter's hand in marriage uh we're going to have to push your birthday dinner back so I can go on Tucker Carlson and graciously he accept it but
(02:30) back to what you were getting at the experience for that spot was clearly getting the production man they put some makeup on you and they're like all right you're going to be on in 30 seconds and you're just sitting there and you're waiting for the red light to go and goes on the lights in your face and you're talking to Tucker Carlson in the studio and it's on it's live so you have to be on and it was 90 seconds that felt like two hours um but that's what it was that was the experience and it was like all right your two minute spots up get
(02:59) out there you can see him yeah I can see him on the TV okay so you actually had some cues to be able to play off of yeah it wasn't just like SC staring at a a camera with nothing to go on in terms of like facial cues and when is this guy going to stop talking let me talk well that's the thing too you had the delay when you're remote too so I was working with that and so if you look at the interview it's like 3 second delay and answer the questions but it was fun we started this I think before we hit record here cuz we're talking about
(03:25) Andrew hones his appearance on CNBC a couple weeks ago iners 10 minutes much more time to absolutely nailed it he crushed it and I was saying I think Andrew is an incredible advocate for the space in that particular medium CNBC Joe kernin the best Bitcoin podcaster in the world Joe kernin um most popular he's becoming more based over time when when it comes to like his Bitcoin views here he's just like coming out you missed it firing yesterday you missed it the $500 billion do asset manager you missed it just and and he said yeah I know I
(04:02) missed it yeah yeah but what else can you say to that we did have good public equities exposure though didn't miss that we can hang our hat on that yeah people are missing it though that's I mean that's what we're here tonight to talk about it's not that people are missing it but I think I I was explaining before we hit record this is the first episode since we crossed over the chasm of five figure Bitcoin to six figure Bitcoin we're sitting here today I believe we're at 102,000 after a slight dip below 100,000
(04:35) yesterday and this is pretty profound I mean we're talking about the Unchained the letter that Joe wrote to Unchained clients um about the journey that it took the 100,000 I think maybe the context of this conversation and what we're here to talk about tonight like from your perspective what has it been like being at unchain for many years getting people on boarded the Bitcoin helping them develop the intestinal fortitude and the understanding to make them comfortable to hold through all the volatility that's existed over
(05:09) the last few years yeah I I have like the best job in the world you know I get to talk to bitcoiners on a daily basis and help them secure what is extremely substantial amounts of wealth in like the best asset on the planet and an asset that they are not a lot of times comfortable actually holding themselves even though they're starting to understand the importance of doing it and having those conversations over the years I mean you really start to understand where people's fears are and what they're trying to accomplish in
(05:44) owning the asset but then also like thinking about it for a multigenerational uh perspective for their family and like the two questions that everybody has or the two the two things that everybody's trying to solve for when they're talking to us is how do I not lose my Bitcoin because I'm holding it myself and it's a bare asset and if I mess it up it's gone and there's nothing you can do to get it back like it is gone right um that come that responsibility is great but it also has extraordinary benefits in in terms of sovereignty and
(06:20) being able to like truly own your wealth and the second question which is very related to that is if something happens to me how do I pass this thing down to my family right because it is multigenerational wealth and if you it doesn't matter what the paperwork says right it doesn't matter what your will or your trust documentation says again if you can't access the Bitcoin because something has happened to those those private keys that you're controlling or your family doesn't know what to do then the bit the Bitcoin can't actually move
(06:52) right so you know we spend a lot of time with our clients working through those two main questions and getting people comfortable with holding very substantial amounts of Bitcoin in a way where they know that it's secure where they can't make one mistake and just lose the Bitcoin but they also have a plan in place for succession um the the first few months and and year really with um a lot of our clients is spent really diving deep on those two questions and so what's it like you know over the years at unchain I mean we've
(07:26) grown so much right the the business is certainly Corr related to the price and um you know when it's nothing but down over the course of 2022 things start slowing down you know there there's there's no way to get around questioning like okay what's going to happen from here you know um but we kept building we kept adding clients we kept educating people um and we kept getting ourselves into a position to be ready to really expand and explode to capture so much opportunity that's coming in this bull market um and so
(08:05) we're we're in kind of like an acceleration phase now and we've grown up from what when I joined was was still very much a kind of a startup feel to the company to a a very mature organization with like all of the control infrastructure that you would expect to have and want to have when you're helping people secure you know 100,000 plus Bitcoin yeah it's funny as you're explaining that like the journey for unan particularly particularly um it's crazy that we're back in this room we're doing this event here tonight and it
(08:38) just hit me while you were saying that I remember gosh this had to be 2017 or 20 it's probably 2018 uh Dro came to town and did the first ever demo of the multisig 203 collaborative custody Vault uh I forget where it was somewhere not too far from where we are right now in the West Village I feel like it was is a little Southwest from from where we are now but it's funny that the two of the 10 people that were at that demo I think are in this this room right now I remember it was me Drew Armstrong specifically AJ
(09:12) Scalia Parker was there um but just REM like literally six years ago it was before the Vault was even a commercial product at Unchained yeah Drew of being like we're thinking about a crazy way and a more secure way to help people scare their Bitcoin and basically demoed what would inevitably turn into the Unchained collaborative custody Vault for the first time yeah I mean we we've pioneered what collaborative custody really is over the years and you know that comes with working through a whole bunch of design questions and operational
(09:50) questions you know it's not enough to just say okay we're going to leverage multisig which is built into Bitcoin and you know yeah you can create this setup where you've got three keys and you know it's two of three multisig and we're holding a key alongside our clients um but that's really just a very small portion of what it takes to actually manage this at scale and create a situation where um when clients have questions and issues and when a key is compromised or something that you've got the proper controls and operational
(10:26) overhead in place to be able to manage that that concern that the that the client has or that issue that they're trying to work through it's it's not enough to just leverage the technology you have to have this um this you know infrastructure built around it in order to make it actually um long-term viable and and and scalable in a way where you can serve thousands of clients with hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin yeah and I think what you guys provide is something that's been lost in a lot of areas of our life today particularly
(11:00) when it comes to client facing product building and interacting with a company just any company whether that be um fintech app a banking app whatever it may be you guys are really bringing customer service back to the four where it's like it's Hands-On we're going to get in the weeds with you really help you develop the knowledge and the comfortability with securing your Bitcoin and then not only that but once you have it secured and you're confident in that we're going to build out the slew of services is whether it's the
(11:30) inheritance protocol um the IRA the The Lending desk to allow you to use your Bitcoin in in ways that are advantageous to you in the long run yeah we we've always been very servicel I would say where you we're we're kind of going be above and beyond to make sure that our clients feel comfortable in the security setup because they need to feel that comfort in order to want to do more with us and to grow you know their business that they're doing with us um so obviously that's that's a mutually beneficial relationship there where
(12:02) we're we're making sure that the questions that our clients have and the fears that they have and the questions that their families have and all that are being addressed in a way where they can feel confident not just putting half a Bitcoin in there as a test but actually tens or hundreds of Bitcoin thousands of Bitcoin as some of our clients have yeah what are um what are some of the biggest hurdles or actually before we jump to that maybe that's a leading question like what are like your typical client particularly that you're
(12:33) seeing these days we pass this is we see it at the podcast we see it at 10:31 when the price goes up interest goes up downloads go up people reaching out AB ask questions about potentially investing goes up I coming to unchain uh what's the the ratio of people that are completely new to bitcoin versus people that understand Bitcoin and recognized like if I'm going to do this the right way I need a partner like on chain typically people who come to us already own coin although that's becoming less and less true as the pan
(13:05) the the the pie grows um but typically people already own some Bitcoin typically it's fairly material amount uh an amount that they're starting to get uncomfortable either holding themselves or holding on an exchange and they recognize that they need some help to make sure that they take custody appropriately so they're starting to recognize the value of actually holding the Bitcoin um but they're they're just not confident that they can do it themselves and they don't want to feel like they're out on an island um and they don't want to spend
(13:38) thousands of hours like going down the technical rabbit holes to really understand the way that you know public private keys are working and the the way that the hardware devices are working um they're looking for a partner in that journey to make sure that they're not going to screw it up right and so you know that's that's really the the key value that we provide along Journey it's it's very educational in helping people understand how Bitcoin works so they can feel confident in that um and then helping them explore what they can do to
(14:09) kind of maximize the value of the wealth that they're holding um and really get the most out of it s freaks this rip of tftc was brought to you by our good friends at bit key bit key makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose it is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a two three multisig you have one key on the hardware wallet one key on your mobile device and block stores a key in the cloud for you this is an incredible Hardware device for your friends and family or maybe yourself who have Bitcoin on exchanges and have for a
(14:40) long time but haven't taken a step to self custody because they're worried about the complications of setting up a private public hey pair securing that seed phrase setting up a pin setting up a pass phrase again bit key makes it easy to use hard to lose it's the easiest zero to one step your first step to self- custody if you have friends and family on the exchanges who haven't mov moved it off tell them to pick up a big key go to bit keyworld use the key tftc 20 at checkout for 20% off your order that's bit keyworld code TFT C20 how how
(15:11) big do you think this crossing of the chasm to six figure Bitcoin is like what do you think it means for for Bitcoin and if any of your if you had a lot of reach out from existing clients like go [ __ ] didn't think we'd get here or maybe I knew we get here maybe not this fast what what my phone probably like yours was like overheat the other night when we first crossed it uh and it was a mix of clients and friends and you know unchain team members and and all that which is which is a lot of fun you know I think
(15:41) um when you cross 100,000 a million doesn't seem all that far off anymore right in the same way that when you cross 10,000 100,000 didn't quite seem as far off anymore and so it's it's more of a a psychological switch where people's perspective can be broadened to say like oh man like there is actually a possibility that Bitcoin trades at a million dollars at some point in the future whether that's 5 years from now 6 years from now 10 20 doesn't matter like the uh the Overton window has shifted to include the
(16:17) possibility of a million dollar Bitcoin yeah I think it's much harder to go from Z to 100,000 it will be to go from 100,000 the first 100,000 is definitely the hardest it feel does it feel like the end of the beginning to you that's why I wrote the the bent I stayed up way too late when we crossed $100,000 3:00 a.m.
(16:37) wrote a bent and it was really like I felt compelled to write um that particular night because like all this feels like a big deal feels like the first almost 16 years we're basically 15 years and 11 months into Bitcoin being being live as a protocol um we've we've had to fight a consistent fud Bitcoin is a bubble bitcoin's tool tether's manipulating Bitcoin bitcoin's too slow it can't scale you saw Goldstein yeah yeah man that was a powerful video it really was he's he's been working on that for years he showed that to me like two years ago ready for
(17:12) I'm ready for 100,000 Bitcoin um you don't really have to update it cuz all the fud is the same yeah there's nothing new into the sun when it comes to that and that's like what like I feel like again like am I over indexing the the gravity of like $100,000 as a psychological Market it seems like once you reach six figures that's what I said in the the the newsletter the other night like $100,000 is some I mean with inflation where it is like maybe it's not as respectable as it was four or five years ago but $100,000
(17:43) respectable annual salary in many people's eyes I mean to The Wider public they're not thinking about inflation adjusted terms really anyway so you know $100,000 is $100,000 um but it's it's huge in terms of that psychological barrier absolutely huge where do you think we go from here in terms of it's been established as a trillion dollar market we're at two trill2 trillion now we talked about the The Primitives of like you got to secure the sassa first it's what is at the core of unchain this multisig primitive using it
(18:21) in the vaults The Lending the IRA trading desk straight into a vault um like once you secur your Bitcoin it gains value we have this Tipping Point of recognition that Bitcoin is here to stay looks like the United States government has a I don't know if I want to say high probability but there's certainly a im material probability of adopting Bitcoin as a strategic Bitcoin Reserve after this event tonight I'm hopping on a plane to go to bitcoin Mana in Abu Dhabi and there's a lot of feror around that particular conference and rumors being
(18:56) spread that some Sovereign wealth funds are going to announce some Bitcoin allocation like in the context of Unchained like now that you have these Primitives of custody and you have new Financial Services built on top of that like what do you think like the evolution of a Bitcoin company like unchain goes into the future in the next 5 10 16 years I mean I think all of the people who are building in Bitcoin are still working on the same problems that we've been working on for a long time which is how do you make
(19:29) Bitcoin more accessible and easier to use cuz it's not all that easy at least it hasn't been historically it's like Lighty years better than it was four or five years ago um you know just and I'll come back to custody and all that in a minute but I think we make some meaningful progress on the medium of exchange type of use case over the next few years as more people come in and they want to like quote unquote use Bitcoin right um and we didn't have any of the tools that we have now four years ago going into 2020 in that and that
(20:02) bull run right lightning network was like barely functional mhm none of the wallet infrastructure node infrastructure um there were no businesses really supporting it or anything like that very few people held you know enough Bitcoin to want to understand how to use it um you know we didn't have fold and river and strike who have integrated lightning into their business model it's just like so much easier to make that use case possible for people to take advantage of and so I actually think we're going to see a lot
(20:38) of ground gained um in in medium exchange over the next over the next few years which is hugely bullish in my mind um on the on the store value mechanism I mean it's it's very clear that that is the primary function of Bitcoin at this point and it really does solve the biggest problem at least in the western world that we have right which is just that your money is the the dollar is designed to lose value and Bitcoin is designed to gain value and so people will just naturally move capital in that direction and we need to
(21:10) make that as easy as possible for them to get to the lowest level of the stack as possible and that's what unchain does right like we operate at the base layer of the stack when it comes to bitcoin adoption um and we'll we'll be working on broadening the top of funnel and and the the different types of people that we can serve But ultimately it needs to drive down to that base layer where people are actually taking Sovereign control over their money um or at least they start to understand how they can go down that path this rip was also brought
(21:44) to you by our good friends at salt of the earth you got to be hydrating Freaks and while you're hydrating you got to be getting your electrolytes this is the best electrolytes mix that I've ever come into contact with uh Pink Himalayan salt with calcium magnesium potassium sodium no sugar it tastes incredible my favorite is the orange and the pink lemonade go to drink.
(22:07) com that's drinks.com use the code tftc when you make your purchase and you'll get 15% off I'm telling you get on it freaks you're going to love this stuff and I mean many people would take this the wrong way but I think it's just like objectively true the trying to think how to say this without pissing too many people off but I mean it's been talked about Justin moon has talked about it on on this show a lot but like ideally at not ideally but if we're being honest with ourselves like the most impactful adoption is going to come from people with insane
(22:38) amounts of wealth who are worried about that wealth dissolving because of the inflation of the dollar and recognizing this is a better asset obviously you want it from both both sides of the spectrum you want the Grassroots individual um adoption like middle class people adopting Bitcoin as a savings technology but when it comes to the impact on the price and and whether you like it or not validation for the asset itself like it's important that large amounts of capital recognize that Bitcoin is a superior store value Asset
(23:09) and actly Bitcoin is savings technology and so you need savings accumulated in order to move into Bitcoin right like so it it makes sense that the people with the most accumulated savings or accumulated Capital are going to be people who are kind of leading the charge in moving a large of capital into the asset um but I think like that's how a lot of technology and a lot of different um protocols and networks are adopted anyway there there stands the reason that that Bitcoin would be you know following that same type of shape but
(23:45) we're entering in my mind into like the the acceleration part of that S curve of adoption right that that that 100K barrier being broken starts to like turn the S curve upward in a extremely we were talking about this earlier super cycle let's get let's get hand up super cycle yes or no Joe we're at the we're at the beginning super cycle yes uh Joe saying for the heck of it what the [ __ ] is a super cycle Thomas is asking what the [ __ ] a super cycle is suzu you remember suzu remember that guy of course but what does it mean it's all
(24:15) it's all a super cycle yeah that sounds really fun I want it Humanity the human super cycle I I I think in terms of you have steady adoption steady price drift upwards without the typical four-year price Cycles we've seen heat death heat death ego heat death of we're still going to see volatility I mean yes or no yes or no I don't I don't know what it is Thomas is saying he doesn't know he's he's refusing there's no there's no clear definition feel free to yes you can Define it and then you know answer the question based on your own
(24:49) definition that's a a good way continue to go up and it's like you know PE and Valley volatil okay no super cycle then so that's a no from Thomas I could I could I could see it being the other way um I mean if the nation states what else yeah so if you're defining it in terms of price like there's definitely going to be volatility if you're defining it in terms of just the wave of adoption that's happening we're in the super cycle yeah we're talking about you want the uh High net worth individuals recognizing Bitcoin as a viable savings
(25:24) technology store value Asset uh nation states are pretty big uh pools liquidity and their treasury reserves are pretty big savings accounts if you will actually not savings accounts a lot of his debt but you can use Bitcoin to turn it into a proper savings account um and it sounds like they might it sounds like they might sounds like they are this guy had president Trump in here using Bitcoin we we all did that we all did that that was a community effort that was fun um but again a lot of like we started this talking about Andrew's we
(26:01) started talking about Andrew's interview on CNBC because we were saying how good Joe Joe Kar has come uh become at basically thwarting off naysay it's like oh you missed it uh and something I've observed you really leaning into is trying to get the fire movement is a financially independent retire early MH uh to recognize that Bitcoin is a much preferable way to achieve your fire goals compared to something like Airbnb real estate or something like that yeah uh Bitcoin fits really nicely into a fire framework how did you all right so
(26:35) explain the fire framework to people and where is your pitch to the fire stands out there many of which are um denying the possibility for Bitcoin to fit into that framework yeah there's definitely been a lot of skepticism in the past in the financial Independence or personal finance generally speaking um world so fin finial Independence retire early is essentially a framework of personal finance that is very intentional about um controlling expenses for things that really only provide value and that making sure you're not wasting money and
(27:14) taking whatever excess earnings that you have and what they would call invest those savings as much as possible as quickly as possible to get you to a place where you've got a portfolio that is large enough to sustain whatever your expenses are or you expect them to be um on an annual basis and when you get to a portfolio large enough you can start to draw down on that and live off of dividends and you know other um you can live off of the portfolio and the assets that you've built up in order to sustain your
(27:47) lifestyle doing so means you don't have to work because you've built up enough assets that you'll never run out or at least it's going to sustain you for for a 30-year period or a 40-year period into the future and so when you get to that place you're financially independent you can quit your job you can go work on passion projects you can do whatever you want to do and not be beholden to a paycheck that you've got coming from a boss you don't like and dealing with the commute and all that kind of thing right and so you know one
(28:19) of the things that I I was honing on there is that the fire Community really focuses on this idea of saving and investing but they're not actually investing they think they're investing they talk about it as if it's investing but really what they're doing is just building a savings portfolio what do I mean by that well most fire practitioners are using index funds in the stock market the S&P 500 or something like the Vanguard Total market index fund vti um or vtsax as like the mutual fund version of that and they're just stacking as much of
(29:02) that index as possible but there's no like analysis on a particular company the price to earnings ratio debt to equity like all of the things that you would think about as important metrics to understand whether or not an asset is overvalued or undervalued they're just stacking assets as quickly as possible well that's what you're doing if you bring Bitcoin into your framework except you're using an asset that is fundamentally better that has a better profile for Access for liquidity for just being able to go up
(29:42) faster because it's perfectly fix in Supply and so you know the reason that the fire framework works even when you're using stocks is because the practitioners understand that they can't hold on to cash so they've got to invest their their money their cost of living is constantly going up and so if you're able to build this portfolio you can sustain those expenses going forward um that's a very intuitive understanding of the exact same problems that you and I and all the bitcoiners understand uh very explicitly because we spend time
(30:14) actually studying the monetary system and the financial system that creates this um debt-based money that we're all forced to to live on that constantly loses loses purchasing power and so by bringing Bitcoin into your framework even just a little bit you can start to accelerate your path to financial Independence and gain you you can gain Financial Independence Beyond just the use case of covering your expenses but actually taking full control of your wealth so it's like this um Dual Purpose ability of not only controlling your lifestyle
(30:52) and being able to not be beholden to a job but then also actually having full control over your wealth um so you know once you recognize Bitcoin as a superior asset for that purpose it makes sense to just start bringing that into your framework and then ultimately like as we all know the more you understand Bitcoin the more you think that is the only place that your excess cash flows need to go yeah it's the only framework necessary and this I mean a couple questions um how's it been received by many in the fire Community number one
(31:27) number two I give a presentation at my rival High School funnily enough my Elma Mater has not asked me to give a presentation but my rival has and that was I think one of the AHA things for the for the uh gentleman in that class was another all boy school was uh at the end of of the chart I had Jesse Myers's uh total asset value in the different buckets and I explained the concept of monetary premium to the uh to the students and I think I visibly saw some kids like oh crap I never thought of it that way like
(31:58) why do you think stocks are that high and like you said people are just passively investing into indexes and not really doing the diligence on individual stocks their debt to equity ratio revenues cash flow profits actually underwrite and allocate Capital based off of what many would be de many would deem to be necessary benchmarks and check boxes to check off before you actually invest Capital into a business you're supposed to be investing into fundamentals cash flows profits Etc we've gotten completely away from that
(32:28) and a lot of investing is just throwing in in these passive funds and yeah you're using the index as a savings vehicle it is not an investment and how much monetary preum the point I'm trying to be a little controversial here for the fire Community is like if Bitcoin adoption continues and people recognize that this extremely scarce asset much easier to underwrite incredibly transparent you can verify everything on your on your own you don't have to go meet with the management team to understand uh their future strategy
(32:58) or or how they're going to invest in R&D and what they're going to do you just know there's 21 million Bitcoin new supplies issued every 10 minutes that issuance gets cut every 210,000 blocks between then you have a difficulty adjustment that affects how easy or hard it is to mine every two weeks every 2016 blocks like you know what Bitcoin is and it is a Superior Savings vehicle and for the fire Community using the the index strategy specifically like at some point and it could be happening now people are going to recognize like uh I am using
(33:33) these indexes as a vehicle for savings and it's an inferior vehicle now that I know what Bitcoin is and like how many people in the fire uh community that are running this are going to get completely blown out as people recognize that there's way too much monetary premium in these passive indexes and just float into Bitcoin I I don't know that they get blown out okay I I'm I'm not like so bearish on the stock market everybody else must suffer Trey I'm kidding I mean they're certainly going to underperform relative
(34:05) to bitcoin right like the stock market will continue to go down toward zero BTC over a long time Horizon we just broke out into a brand new fresh low of you know the S&P versus Bitcoin um so that will continue to happen but that doesn't mean in Fiat terms that they're going to continue to do poorly if they just follow that that same strategy like I I'm I'm still fundamentally bullish on like the traditional fire approach it's just that you're leaving a lot on the table you know and you're constraining yourself to
(34:40) assets that are permissioned that you have to you know ask for permission to use that are really only accessible to people in the US so that's another point that I I like to make is you know the S&P the US Stock Market has outperformed the rest of the globe in terms of of you know the returns it's been able to provide because the US is a is a global leader um but if you're somewhere else in the world you don't necessarily have access to any stock market at all let alone the S&P so Bitcoin is really the only choice if you want to have a
(35:13) savings asset that everybody has access to right um so that's that's another point I think people are there there are certainly some people who are starting to come around to bitcoin as a um an okay fit to incorporate into a fire framework you're starting to see that that ice thaw a little bit um in in certain pockets and what I've discovered in being vocal about this and like starting my newsletter um you know on substack and all that is that there are a lot of bitcoiners who have come from a similar Journey that I did which is they
(35:49) were already doing like a fire type approach and they too found Bitcoin as a superior asset to incorporate into that framework and um they too are looking for other people to like share those ideas with and they too are wanting to help the traditional fire movement to actually understand this because it it does fit so nicely there so I think we're starting to make some some Headway we're never going to see Mr Money Mustache come out and say he was wrong to call Bitcoin must Mr Mall strip guy is another one isn't or strip mall guy
(36:23) strip mall guy strip yeah I think I put him on blast on on Twitter with my massive following there um you know like Mr Money Mustache I I wrote about this in the the very first issue of my newsletter he wrote this thing in January of 2018 why Bitcoin is stupid and you know it's all the same it's very easy to do it's all the same bitcoin's down like 20% from a blowoff top it had it had just reached 20,000 dropped 50% and then it was back on the way up to like test those highs and it was like 14,000 at the time
(36:58) and you know it's all the same garbage fud that we've all heard a million times beanie babies and all this stuff right um so there's no like serious inquiry into what Bitcoin is and what problem it actually solves even though it solves the exact problem that you're using the index for S um but like a guy like that is not going to come out and be like oh yeah looks turns out I was wrong to write bit why Bitcoin is stupid but there are others um who are kind of coming around to to recognizing that hey maybe this does deserve at least a small
(37:33) allocation in a portfolio um and then and then start to learn about it right um it's it's like everybody else right we all go through that that Journey yeah where you you get a little taste and then you wash the price a little bit and then you think oh this is kind of interesting and your your mind starts to open up to um all the things that we talk about on a daily basis in terms of the problems of coin solves yeah a lot of these people have the uh the Yuppy Elite problem for sure where it seem it almost seems too good
(38:05) to be true too is that a problem that or not a problem but like is that something you have to explain to people like so I just buy this one asset and people are going to adopt it for the same reasons it's scarce distributed it certainly does sound more sophisticated to say that you are investing that you're an investor as opposed to just saving in good money you know so I think maybe there's a little bit of that the fire Community I wouldn't call like they typically like the general practitioners there are not like the Yuppy Elite and
(38:36) that they're like your uh super high IQ Harvard type people um it's more like everyday people who are you know probably don't make a whole lot of money but they're again being very intentional about the way that they spend that money so they can widen the gap between their income and their expenses and then start to put money away because they don't like the job that they're working anyway right um you know there aren't that many people who can say what I can say at the beginning of of this this rip here that
(39:08) they love what they do right they're just they just aren't um and so it's it's a it's a nice thing to be able to go after something with a a dedicated and intentional framework that has a extremely high chance for success to kind of get you ahead of the game yeah and it's important if you don't like what you do trying to find a way out is extremely important and that's what like going back to like fire like the whole reason for fire existing is to do that and like Bitcoin for me personally it's that is exactly what it has allowed me to do no
(39:42) sneezing Joe please um is I I mean got into it in college stayed humble stack SATs a little bit every paycheck and um got to the point where I was able to get some breathing room to figure out what went to do started the newsletter started this podcast and um Bitcoin was a pivotal tool and creating that personal Liberation for me to go pursue my passions and not have to sit in a cube pulling data from Bloomberg and running return analysis and talking to um talking to funds about their strategies I mean it was interesting but was buried
(40:22) in spreadsheets for quite a few years I do not miss the Excel spreadsheets I actually enjoyed it did you I was um a bit of an Excel wiiz and I like doing the coding stuff the uh the V lookups I couldn't make a v lookup today if you asked me to but it did feel powerful when you when you successfully created a a workable vook up um let's talk about tonight signature clients here yes sir this is something that you guys have rolled out and really leaned into wrote out a while ago but really leaned into it last six months we have an event for
(40:56) Signature clients at Pub gy tonight um is another part of the special Hands-On touch you guys are bringing to the market is having this white glove service where you're there to not only educate people um make sure they have the support that they need but helping further their education and get them together with like-minded individuals to spitball ideas and um confirm with each other that they're not crazy for getting into this crazy internet money uh I've seen this behind the scenes not only at tftc but 1031 it seems like people are
(41:35) really liking the signature product specifically yeah it's been about a year and a half since we have essentially elevated the brand on the service that we provide to a level that is more all-encompassing all-encompassing right so um signature has become the standard for how a lot of people come into Unchained and get into integrated into their setup on their custody side and then answering that succession planning question uh in those first few months and whether you want to explore in very deep conversations what that succession
(42:10) plan looks like and bringing family into into that conversation bringing a state attorneys into that conversation to make sure everybody just understands what this model is and that you can feel really confident that it's going to work if something happens to you um people really like to go down that rabbit hole um a lot of people are hesitant on putting large amounts of Bitcoin into something that's new uh or a new setup and they want to really explore the technical aspects there so you know signature is an all-inclusive
(42:44) um all-encompassing experience in not only helping you onboard into Unchained and really understand how this collaborative custody model works and get that succession plan in place but then providing you with dedicated support in an ongoing fashion from somebody who is a single point of contact with a team behind them in case you have like priority issues that you need to have addressed from a technical perspective uh in case you want to explore some of the educational aspects of Bitcoin and and really like go down
(43:16) whatever rabbit holes you'd like to to do there um and then we have a whole bunch of other benefits that are included in the signature Service as well you get reduced trading fees if you're using our trading desk um all of the account that you have with us which would normally be paid for in kind of an alart manner are included personal accounts trust accounts um Ira accounts right if you are and and most of our clients do have like multiple contexts that they are um securing Bitcoin in right they've got Bitcoin that's in
(43:45) their personal name they've got an IRA that they've rolled from the traditional Financial system business account they've got businesses that they are building Bitcoin treasuries with um and so you know we want to make sure there's an option for people to just take care of everything with like the highest touch service that you could possibly have and and that's what we are are really leading with as we are facing the market these days um and there's huge huge demand for it um my guys David and James and Jared who are like you know
(44:17) kind of on the front lines of supporting these clients will attest to the fact that they are just absolutely slammed with the amount of demand that we've had for having this High touch um and we're going to continue to uh stack as much value into that experience as we possibly can uh because people love it so much and then just to kind of bring it back to tonight Unchained um I I not afraid to say has had a very good reputation for the parties that we throw the private events that we throw whether it's at like conferences and that kind of thing
(44:51) they're always like very um very well done and people people really love them like we always get really good feedback and so in doing those events they're typically like private invite only type of events and so all of our signature clients get um get invites to those like first R of refusal to make sure if they want to attend they've got an invite there and then from there we we work to build some other invites from people who are in the area wherever we are so like a couple months ago we were out in LA and did something uh out there um and
(45:26) all of our signature clients are invited to that we have this event tonight here um at pubkey all of our signature clients are invited to that and then on a monthly basis we do virtual events as well so bring in thought leaders into in the space to talk to them in like kind of like a private podcast where they can ask questions and and get some um kind of exclusive you know Alpha that these people are are able to to provide in a much more intimate setting um so anything that you want in your Bitcoin Journey that signature experience is
(45:58) built and designed to give to you and it's extremely popular as I as I mentioned for people who are new to unchain and coming in and really want to make sure that they're taking care of all of the Loose Ends that they might have in getting that custody set up and that succession plan set up and and accessing the financial services that we provide yeah and it's CRA we we see this at 1031 to with our tribe where we do quarterly events whether that's in person um or uh virtually and it's to get LPS and Founders in
(46:31) front of each other Founders basically say what they're building and the LPS get an opportunity to ask Founders questions and feel like they're they're actually learning about what's happening behind the scenes Cutting Edge stuff and that's the one really cool thing that I've just observed over the last three years through our journey at 1031 is how like once somebody catches the Bitcoin bug they want to learn as much as they it's like the only not that I've played with many other assets uh since I was 22 but I I did work at a fund and like we
(47:02) had LPS at that fund and I don't think anybody cared about hopping on a call with somebody running a commodity trading advisor fund learning about their momentum strategy or their Trend following strategy but at 1031 like the LPS uh are maniacally like focused on learning as much as they can and getting exposure to as many thought leaders in the space just cuz they want to continue to build that knowledge something contagious about it like once you catch the bug it's like I need to learn everything yeah it's Bitcoin is
(47:33) endlessly fascinating it touches so much around it touches so many different aspects of the way that we lives live our lives economics and politics and money which touches everything in and of itself right um and then you know we we see it bleed into the decisions that we're making on a personal basis when it comes to health and exercise and and all that kind of thing um so yeah people like they they they start to develop that bit of it sounds bad to say it like a mind virus but it really starts to take over the way that your thought
(48:07) process works and and yeah people like to talk to other people who have a similar experience there and exploring those Sim those same similar topics yeah yeah almost cult-like if you will embrace the cult-like nature of Bitcoin people embrace it it's natural I'm kidding but um we got a end here in about seven minutes did you see Lloyd Lloyd blanken fine tweeting about Bitcoin I did I worked for Goldman Sachs for three years what did what did you think about your old boss's um thoughts on bitcoin what was the exact quote I think he was like
(48:42) uh Trump I don't see how Trump could be against bricks currencies trying to I'm paraphrasing here um compete with the US dollar Reserve System and out of the other side of his mouth be supportive of Bitcoin as a strategic um Reserve asset yeah because Bitcoin is implicitly acknowledging that it competes with the dollar it it does yeah um yeah you know some people say the quiet part out loud when they shouldn't you know and that's what Lloyd did there uh he's he's definitely admitting that this is something that could be you know play
(49:20) into the Strategic approach that different countries take to geopolitics right um Putin same day was it the same day M the other day right saying who can stop Bitcoin nobody like this acknowledgement that not only are leaders of Nations recognizing the value of Bitcoin and what it can do but implicitly saying that they've already been stacking I mean Putin has all but come out and said like Russia is stacking SATs and I think that particular acknowledgement yesterday on stage wherever he was was a shot across the bow of trump um who's
(50:06) been very vocally uh posturing towards bricks countries particularly like don't try to create a competing Reserve currency the dollar we will tariff the hell out of you and make sure that your life is miserable um meanwhile here in the United States I me part of that strategy bricks has has been choreographing for the last a few years has been we're going to try to shift to maybe an SDR but like a currency with gold at its core and you can look at the numbers central banks of Russia and China particularly um have
(50:41) been accumulating a butt ton of gold over the last decade and if you look at the Bitcoin strategic Reserve Act put forward by Cynthia lumus um there is uh in overt attempt to if that Bill gets passed make sure that the FED um gives the US government their gold certificates back which are currently priced at $42 mark them the market and sell the gold to buy Bitcoin um which would um which would impede the bricks country's attempt to go build this gold back currency because if they us is dumping its gold for Bitcoin it's going to be bad for the
(51:19) price of gold and good for the price of Bitcoin I think P what he was saying on stage yesterday was just like a slate like Hey we're paying attention to bitcoin too like we can playing that game if that's the direction you want to go in absolutely yeah it's pretty amazing I I can't honestly believe I I don't think any of us could have believed like 3 4 years ago that we would be in the position that we are now with the US seriously considering this strategic Bitcoin reserve and with Putin and all these other global leaders
(51:49) adopting Bitcoin essentially like again we're in the super cycle here in terms of adoption yeah the the price the price will be volatile but we'll see we'll see we'll see we'll see that's what actually it's a good segue into uh the chat we're about to have with Andrew I think that's um and Joe and I were sharing notes on questions asked but I think the you guys have the landing desk you use Bitcoin as collateral um one uh one year duration what Andre and batter you're doing and sort of trying to do the same thing use
(52:23) Bitcoin as collateral for these commercial real estate deals but extend the duration to aade and that's one thing I'm very curious to see this cycle particularly is can battery and others basically prove this model and get others to recognize that this is probably a better way to finance these types of uh real estate deals and many other types of structure credit products that exist out there and do they get enough demand to pull enough Bitcoin off the market into these structured credit products for 10 20 30 year durations
(52:56) that is a type of demand lever that hasn't existed in the past and is beginning to emerge this around I love what battery is doing and and how they're pioneering that I it's going to be super interesting to see how Bitcoin can worm its way into various different credit products as the the pristine collateral that it is you know um and it's it's it is like it is going to find its way into a number of different Financial products that we haven't seen yet um you've got Wall Street coming to the game with their you know Quant the the
(53:33) Quant Bros on Wall Street like figuring out how to incorporate the volatility that comes with Bitcoin um and you know all the different aspects that make it good collateral into this like Fiat Financial infrastructure um and there's going to be some interesting ideas that come up some of them probably going to blow up and that that will that will bring some fireworks and some fun for us but sailor tries to give a his Bitcoin at JP Morgan get a 5% yeld he could get into some trouble there he might want Michael if you're listening think twice
(54:04) about that that's yeah I mean definitely don't go all in with that strategy I don't think I need to give Michael saor advice but think about it okay yeah but this does come full circle trafi getting in the reason I brought up Lloyd blanken fine that's the way I've always envisioned Unchained especially with the calculated progression of the product offering over time collaborative custody Landing desk trading desk Ira inheritance getting into um financial planning with sound advisory like you can squint and see
(54:40) unchain becoming a Goldman Sachs like entity under a Bitcoin standard what are what are your thoughts on the potential for that I think we are set up to help people secure material amounts of Bitcoin that is their general you know generational wealth and to Access Financial Services that are built around that Bitcoin in new and novel ways that are that take advantage of the unique properties of Bitcoin you know I think Wall Street comes in and they take Bitcoin and they kind of try to like jam it into the Fiat world and
(55:17) are not really taking into consideration what they could do with the actual asset um and the the properties that it holds we take the opposite approach where we we lean into the fundamental properties that Bitcoin has we lean into the ability of using multisig for various different purposes and we purposely build products that leverage those native properties in in ways that Wall Street can't do because they're not willing to go down to that base layer right so um I think you know we're we're going to continue to Pioneer in in that regard
(55:54) and you know uh me bring it back to a little bit of a shill For an upcoming event that we have on Tuesday we are doing this online massive online event um helping people think about how they can get their Bitcoin house in order for 20125 we're at the beginning of the super cycle you just said it Thomas definitely believes it thas he must have left now he's in the corner giving us a thumbs up E's yep yep um and you know as we move into to this new regime of six figure Bitcoin you need to be thinking about how you are protecting your wealth
(56:34) in Bitcoin that you already own um how you're going to acquire more of it over time and what that succession plan looks like and that's what we do on a daily basis we help our clients get their Bitcoin house in order whether it's uh custody and security whether it's succession planning whether it is thinking about making their annual contribution to their Ira that they're moving into Bitcoin um we recently launched a uh donor advise fund product where people can um donate Bitcoin in this daff structure which follows all
(57:12) the same rules as a traditional daff with the exception that you can actually hold one of the three keys in a collaborative custy model along with the daff administrator and see for yourself that the Bitcoin hasn't been sold for dollars that you can take the the same tax benefits in the current year and then direct those funds as in when you see fit um it's a new and novel way to approach an old product that is extremely popular we've gotten tons and tons of people reaching out to us saying oh I love that model I would love to be
(57:42) able to take advantage of um you know making these donations take the the uh tax benefit today direct that money in the future and in the meantime the the beneficiaries of those when whenever you're directing that money get all the upside of Bitcoin right because it's just sitting there waiting for this super cycle to play out and maybe you make a $500,000 donation and by the time you're giving the money away it's 5 million right pretty pretty powerful stuff there so just a a perfect example of how we build from the base layer we
(58:15) use bitcoin's native properties to um create new and novel ways of approaching people's generational wealth and giving them the tools to get their Bitcoin house in order yeah yeah and that's going to be led by tur and Jeff Andrew yeah some OG guys tur has been like tur was tur was out there beating the drum at $100 Bitcoin saying it's going to 100,000 it's going to a million T has absolutely nailed the last like three Cycles like right at the bottom if you're not following or listening to what tour has to say like you are really
(58:50) missing out you need to absolutely start with this event you can go to the website and and sign up for that register for that um and then Jeff Andrew is like one of the smartest dudes I know um he helped us build this Ira product that we've had for the last three years um he has a wealth of knowledge around the the tax side and the legal side and can really answer a lot of those questions uh from a technical perspective that people have around how they're managing their wealth there uh and so it's a really like
(59:22) dynamic duo that we'll be presenting on on Tuesday uh December 10th I think it is um to you know help kind of kick off the New Year in the right way yeah and uh if you don't want to go find it you can go to unchain dcom tftc I checked that uh that URL is going straight to the onboarding for this this online event there we go go check it out let's go have some beers let's enjoy our Friday night let's enjoy Bitcoin are we still over 100k where where we at uh 100 100 I think we see new alltime High during the event do we not 100.8 right
(59:59) now 100.8 could happen it's Friday night all right you know what it's fair game let's go do it Trey it's been a pleasure sir been a pleasure we got to do it at tftc Studios we can't um we can't just meet here I mean it's great meeting here at pubkey media house The Parlor of pubkey I'm happy to anytime man we got to get we got to do it at the commments next time you're in Austin yeah absolutely all right let's got have some fun all right peace and love
