This podcast explores the transformative role of Bitcoin, ecash, and open-source protocols like Nostr in building a decentralized, privacy-focused financial future amid the rise of centralized surveillance tools like CBDCs.
The podcast delved into the intersections of technology, privacy, and finance, highlighting Bitcoin and open-source systems like Ecash and Nostr as counterweights to centralized surveillance tools such as Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs). Ecash, rooted in 1980s cryptographic innovations, has been revitalized through projects like Cashew and FediMint, offering private, offline, and microtransaction capabilities. The guest emphasized the transformative potential of open-source interoperability, with protocols like Nostr and Lightning Network creating a decentralized financial ecosystem as an alternative to legacy systems. Viewing programming as a form of art, the guest urged developers to prioritize privacy and user empowerment, framing financial privacy as a fundamental human right essential for democracy and innovation.
This podcast episode explored the challenges and opportunities of the digital age, emphasizing Bitcoin, ecash, and open-source protocols like Nostr as tools to build a financial future rooted in privacy, decentralization, and user empowerment. While the rise of surveillance systems like CBDCs poses significant challenges, the episode urged developers, advocates, and users to take collective action in shaping decentralized alternatives. Ultimately, it served as both an educational resource and a rallying cry, reminding listeners, "We have one shot to transition into a digital world. Let’s do it right."
0:00 - Intro
0:40 - Programming is art
5:40 - Zooming out on the struggle for freedom
10:27 - Dealing with the pace of change
14:24 - Unchained & Fold
16:17 - Financial privacy
20:47 - Chaumian ecash history
33:38 - Zaprite & SOTE
35:10 - Ecash on bitcoin
42:59 - Hash pools
48:49 - Interoperable systems
52:15 - We need more privacy and more devs
55:28 - Narrative and communication
1:00:49 - Magic stuff that just works
1:10:23 - Nostr as a gateway to bitcoin
1:17:25 - Wrap up
(00:00) the central Bankers aren't sleeping and the cbdc is going to come good thing is that they are very slow so we need to be able to provide a safe alternative for people who don't want any of that you can try to be as private as you like you can turn off Google Maps on your phone you can use signal for your communication but as soon as you make anything in the world which is always involves a credit card these days then you're back at zero we will see a world where there is no physical cash anymore and everyone will be forced use digital
(00:32) money and the question is what type call is a long time coming I was looking forward to this thanks for having me man I was too I wanted to do it in person I'm happy that we're uh we're in person in this beautiful beautiful place yeah The Vibes have been high here you uh showed off some skills last night we won't we won't dox too much but we've got some good uh some good gaming skills let's say I won you did win um I've been thinking a lot how to start this conversation we could dump obviously we'll talk about cashew ecash
(01:12) Bitcoin Noster really I I think what has impressed me the most ever uh after having getting to know you probably over the course of you probably met over video call this time last year and have met in person a couple times since then but you uh sounds like you're an artist in the uh in the cipher Punk world you use cashew Bitcoin Noster as a canvas to really bring your art to the world which you think can make the world a better place is a good descri is this how you view this this is the the vibe that you get often that I get from you
(01:50) every time I meet you yeah first of all I'll take that as a compliment um I think I think of programming as as an art form yeah for sure so so the way I think about it is that an artist needs to do art because it's their most direct way to translate their thoughts into physical reality so an artist would have an image in their mind or a poet will have language in their mind and the way they can translate that into the world is by writing or by painting So my mind is a computational mind I think of algorithms and
(02:31) software and when I take a shower that's the problems that keep reverberating in my mind and I feel the urge to realize those thoughts into the world and the way to do that is through programming but that's I think that's just a personal perspective of it obviously programming has way more implications on the world it can change the world such as any form of art can do it can have an impression on people consuming it and Inspire others to do the same and um another thing that I think the programming writing software being
(03:13) in Bitcoin um has in common with art is that it's a skillful it's a skill and you can get better at it you can Master these skills you can study it you can devote your time and energy into getting better at those things and yeah I think most programmers don't think of it the way I do which is unfortunate I think it would give them more creative energy more purpose in what they're doing um but I I know that many many do so um there is there is Beauty in code and there is Beauty in technology we just have to know how to look for
(03:57) it and maybe to end on that is uh the perception of beauty is something that needs training so let's say you're looking at an abstract piece of art that looks like complete garbage to many people which is just a mess of a chaotic mess of colors for example a painter who has spent his life on abstract painting will see something very different from um the UN uninitiated mind mind and I think that's also true with code So reading uh djb's uh then Bernstein's code for example is like one of the Godfathers of elliptic curve
(04:48) cryptography uh looking at his code versus just random code anyone in the business sees a big difference between the code of a true Master versus the code of a person who isn't there yet so I think yeah there are many similarities and it makes sense because we're all the same and I think the Creative Energy that leads to this output comes from the same Source it's some kind of a deeper human desire to manifest your own where work your own ideas and energy in the world and some people choose one way and others choose another yeah
(05:40) ultimately the art affects the world in a positive way and has a net positive effect on what happens in reality and how people actually live their lives the quality of their lives the quality of the reality that they that they live in and I think where it stands today and why we're both here focused on bitcoin you're heavily focused on ecash now both interested in Noster just because we recognize that the world really needs better tools more beautiful tools that really enable people and give them a better quality of life and give them a
(06:16) better starting place in this world which seems to be at a fork in the road where you get the dystopian surveillance State cbdc social credit score or which are all built on centralized systems that are tightly controlled either by governments or private corporations like paler or you get the open source open protocols that anybody can access anybody can opt into opt out of just as importantly um where where the playing field is level and everybody has a fair shot you know what you're you're operating in and I think what what did
(06:54) howy say about the internet it could be a tool for good or or for bad yeah he said the computer can be used as a tool to liberate and protect people and not to control them and I think I mean what you're saying is completely right and I invite everyone to zoom out on that problem a lot more than we tend to do we look at these things in from the lens of someone living on a human scale so we think of the last 10 years and we think of the next 10 years but humans are at least hundreds of thousands of years old Homo
(07:31) sapiens right so we're still just a blip in terms of the age of our planet and we have way to go and the technological Revolution that we're experiencing right now have been experiencing in the last let's say 100 years is just the beginning of a new era I think everyone agrees on that so what we set out to do now will have a way bigger impact than you can imagine today it is you know we have to express these these problems in terms of let's say poener and x and um the NSA and uh Financial surveillance and so on
(08:21) like these problems are very understandable from in the in the time scale of what we experience right now but we will continue to exist for thousands of years to come and so the question is not only is it an ethical company versus an unethical one or is it a open- source Community versus a closed Source product I think you know zooming out it will just starkly determine the outcome and fate of humanity whether we will be living in a dystopian cyber uh dystopia or a Utopia that we will have to build using these tools um it's way scarier than we can
(09:18) imagine because I I don't know what what life will look like in a 100 years but I'm pretty sure it will be very very different from now and I'm also sure it will be much more technological and integrated to these Technologies Our Lives will depend on these things a lot more just as an example think of prosthesis body modification the machines that we put into our bodies which we will do 100% which we're already doing with things like just glasses for example are already an modification of your body and as we integrate these things more and
(09:56) more into our bodies the question is do we control them or do they control us and well which path will take simply only depends on what we build and you know on individuals decisions of what they want to do uh you and me so I'm I'm optimistic and scared at the same time I am as well I'm really optimistic I think I'm always optimistic because I truly believe in the human Spirit but like you said it is scarier than ever because of the technology particularly surveillance technology social media platforms with algorithms
(10:41) that know how to manipulate people's psyches the ability to quash the human Spirit has never been as easy as it is today that's why I love hanging out with bitcoiners people building on Noster and these open source protocols because he can really feel the human Spirit reacting to that that all-encompassing attempt to squash freedom and liberty and the ability of the individual to have agency over their life in this digital world that is evolving and that's one thing that that I hope these Technologies really enable is to uh unleash the human
(11:22) spirit in the digital world and allow it to be free I think this is already happening um as as you said this is happening in real time right now I used to be a bit more uh bit more pessimistic about where we are right now as I get older I try like I tend to accept things a bit more and uh look at them from a different perspective and I'll make it this more specific um for example you can complain about um fake news online manipulation hatred online just the ugliest parts of humanity are revealed once we go online
(12:01) and can talk to each other and thinking of the '90s early 2000s we had a very strong expectation of that the internet would allow us to feel closer to each other now 20 years later it feels like it's one of the most divisive forces on the planet as well and I used to think that this is because we failed these days I I'm coming closer to the conclusion that maybe it is actually doing exactly what it's supposed to do and the road is a lot bumpier than I expected it to be maybe this is what it looks like when Humanity wakes
(12:42) up maybe um hatred uh fake news manipulation is just part of the equation and we're just trying to Grapple with a new type of technology that no one has showed us before it might just take another 50 years until we get used to it yeah I mean you mentioned earlier the the fact that we've been around for a couple hundred thousand years as Homo sapiens and I think that's the thing that always is is one thing I always anchor to is particularly I'm a '90s kid born in the early 90s saw AOL come into my house all mobile phones get distributed to the
(13:23) markets all the emergence social media Bitcoin financial crisis and the pace of change in our lives alone uh and my life alone has been incredibly fast to the point which has never been experienced in human history this pace of change and as you were describing maybe we're just going through the process of learning how to take in all this data filter it and try to discern the signal from the noise and make decisions that are in our best interest at the end of the day and who knows maybe what are we 12 15 years
(13:56) in longer than that almost 20 years in to the social media age and maybe we're just developing the brain processing power to actually filter all this data and make correct decisions and we've explored the design space and the edge cases of this for two decades now and are finally at a point where it's like all right this seems to be something that we need to course correct and you have this natural correction in the form of these open source protocols so freaks this rip of tftc was brought to you by our good friends at bit key bit key
(14:27) makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose it is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a two three multisig you have one key on the hardware wallet one key on your mobile device and block stores a key in the cloud for you this is an incredible Hardware device for your friends and family or maybe yourself who have Bitcoin on exchanges and have for a long time but haven't taken a step to self- custody because they're worried about the complications of setting up a private public hey pair securing that seed phrase setting up a pin setting up
(14:57) a pass phrase again bit key makes it easy to use hard to lose it's the easiest 0o to one step your first step to self- custody if you have friends and family on the exchanges who haven't moved it off tell them to pick up a big key go to bit keyworld use the key tftc 20 at checkout for 20% off your order that's bit keyworld code TFT C20 sup freaks this is a read you don't want to skip everyone knows about fold you know about fold it's the app where you can earn the most Bitcoin rewards for everyday purchases but here's the kicker
(15:28) fold now lets you double full stack rewards with gift cards use your credit or debit card to buy gift cards and earn both credit card rewards and SATs from groceries at instacart or Kroger to home upgrades at Lowe's or Home Depot maybe you want to get takeout you like Uber Eats IND door Dash maybe you want to go on a trip you're using Airbnb or Southwest and everything else on Amazon fold gift cards help you grow your stack with every purchase if you're not shopping with fold gift cards you're leaving SATs on the table it's as simple
(15:56) as that don't leave SATs on the table go sign up for the fold app new users get a 20,000 sat welcome bonus with their first gift card purchase don't leave SATs on the table I'm going to stress that go sign up now at fold app.com Mary and so we're get I don't want to say we're getting esoteric but I think what you're working on I said this on the Money Matters podcast uh on Monday particularly with cash you eash generally as a concept is where the signal is in terms of innovation for banking in the this digital age banking
(16:30) on on bitcoin specifically and instead of waxing poetic getting esoteric I think you do a really good job at highlighting the jux position of the dystopian surveillance Financial system that is that has emerged around us how it works and the potential alternative that we could opt into with a financial system built on bitcoin ecash lightning Noster and all these other open source protocols yeah so let's get more specific um the conversation about financial privacy is something that we're kind of just started having in the
(17:09) last couple years I think this is one of the biggest taboo issues still in the tech space or in just general in society we have converged in the last couple years to a point where most people agree that private communication is important we see it as a human right um we see it as a a condition for human expression and freedom and I think we need to achieve something similar with financial privacy as well right now Financial privacy is typically associated with crime and just bad people doing bad things and this was
(17:46) exactly the same for private communication a couple years ago it was associated with the things that you wouldn't want to be associated with and we've got to this place by uh uh lots of people working on communication communicating these ideas to the right people at the right place in the right time and I think we need to go to a similar Place uh for our financial transactions I'll just make an example um if you buy uh a newspaper with your credit card then there are three four companies involved in this single transaction and
(18:24) they all know which terminal you used at what time with which credit card uh company and which phone manufacturer you use to make your tap to pay and that phone manufacturer knows your account so there are so many individual companies in this single operation they could all say no so they can stop you from transacting they could turn off your money at any point but I think even the worst part of it is that they can fully track your your entire life you can try to be as private as you like with anything that you uh do and say you can
(18:58) turn off Google Map apps on your phone you can use signal for your communication but as soon as you make kind of anything in the world which is always involves the credit card these days then you're back at zero and um we need to come to a place where everyone understands that this is not how it has to be I think we were we were limited by what we can imagine um we were always thought that this is just how uh any Financial Service needs to work a financial service needs to know who you are and what you're doing and why you're
(19:28) doing it and uh but we're trying to show the world that this is not necessary uh with ecash ecash is a completely different way of building Financial Services banking services streaming services anything that kind of requires a payment and uh it respects the user's privacy and we are building it on top of the Bitcoin system because the Bitcoin system invites in invites innovation in contrast to the banking system the Fiat banking system that we have today uh this should be possible also on the Fiat banking system it should be
(20:03) possible to you know you should not have to use your credit card to make a simple purchase and um but there is nothing there's no alternative or no product that you could use today uh with cash we're trying to build this new generation of services on top of Bitcoin hopefully to see it expand to anything and everything um but uh I think we can uh build a safer Financial system for the individuals where their privacy is guaranteed through cryptography and not only through uh their own individual choices whether they have good obsi and
(20:38) so on and so forth yeah I mean and going back to the beginning of the conversation like an artist creating beautiful software that makes the world a better place I mean that's that's the way I view Satoshi pushing Bitcoin into the world 16 years ago now and it's funny because ecash um the sort of idea of these blinded signature this blinded signature system that enables this digital cast system is old I'm sure if you've listened to this podcast you understand this but it's probably important for those who are new
(21:09) to bitcoin to understand this uh chammi and ecash is an idea that's at this point over 40 years old um it launched uh in the late 80s correct yeah so the initial paper by David CH who the inventor of the ecash systems or blind signatures as you said is from 82 yeah and um history is super fascinating it is so David CH is this uh cryptographer he's a genius well-regarded genius across the board uh still alive today and he's still going strong and 1982 he invented something called Blind signatures it's basically a way to sign
(21:45) a contract without having to see the contract and uh he realized that using this primitive we we call these cryptographic Primitives it's kind of like a building block on which you can build more complex things and using this primitive that you could build electronic money systems that preserve user privacy now mind you this is 82 so David Chum was so Visionary that he knew that one day we will be at a point at a place where we are right now that most of our Lives will be online everything will be electronic and he saw what we just
(22:17) discussed he saw that payments will be the perfect way to control and track the population so he invented in 82 a method to build these systems in a privacy preserving way he's very famous for his quotes where he says that without privacy democracy is not possible and this is uh it's very true if you cannot uh have a private life you are not able to form your own ideas independent ideas and push the world to a place where you wanted to see in so in 82 um DAV charm invents charman ecash what we call charmian ecash today
(22:58) and uh everyone was extremely excited about this technology if you look back into uh to the history uh starting in '90s they had this company called digicash and digicash was marketing to the biggest Financial players in the world so uh you had uh deals with Deutsche Bank credit SS JP Morgan uh I think it was Visa or Mastercard but one of the two big credit card systems and even Microsoft like I'm dropping the biggest names that I could be dropping and all of these companies were building ecash infrastructure in the early 90s or
(23:35) at least were interested in offering banking services or financial services that allow users to use those services with a similar privacy as with physical cach but online electronic cach ecash and so we're still around almost 20 years before Bitcoin even emerged and you know historically speaking this is the first cryptocurrency meaning it is a currency that uses cryptography to ensure security and privacy and the whole plan was to build to transition the Fiat system uh from a from this Legacy banking to an ecash banking system where
(24:17) users would have their let's say JP Morgan Bank account you would log into to your bank on your computer and then you would download ecash you can imagine it's similar to going to an ATM from your bank for example you just go to your account and download ecash and you download it to your computer and think of it the same way as physical cache and then as you go to a website you would then be able to spend this ecash let's say for a merchant online just to buy a t-shirt for example or to read an article online or eventually also um use
(24:54) it in form of payment cards so you can make purchases uh physical purchases for offline so uh there was a big consensus of that this is the technology that everyone should follow however um it's very interesting to follow this up and to go into the reasons like why why it didn't work and uh none of this worked out at the end of the day although those huge deals were on the table just one one piece of trivia is like Microsoft offered to um David charm's company digicash that they would include a dig cash wallet in every
(25:30) Windows 98 installation by default this was how serious everyone was taking this so you would have a digital wallet in every Windows computer in the '90s uh none of this worked out though uh there were a couple of pilots and experiments they were successful but uh it seems like David sh was unable to uh make any deals he was he did he required too much she changed the terms of these deals in last minute and so forth so uh lots of testimonials they white failed uh eventually none of this succeeded and only in the nine late 90s we see credit
(26:07) cards emerging and then PayPal entering the scene and using really Stone Age Technology again to transition us to the digital world basically the same Ledger technology that the ancient Egyptians have invented Double Entry Ledger where you just you know add one entry here subtract one entry there and you're done uh but with full transparency everyone is completely trackable everyone is completely controllable I can just turn off your money if I don't like you and so on and um with that the internet grew this this was a precondition for the
(26:43) internet to grow and I want to say this this is something that I've been just recently uh realizing these payment technologies that were invented in the late '90s beginning of the 2000s were not really Innovations they were really like ancient technology in a digital Exel sheet duct taping it onto the internet 100% the reason why they exploded so much is not because they're so good but because there was real real demand the internet needs payments it it it became one of the biggest places for markets and economics today this is
(27:20) Trivial to say today but in the uh early 2000s this was the emerging market for example the story with PayPal eBay people realize that hey you can trade goods with other people peer-to-peer but there is no good and easy way to make the payment the other half of the transaction so PayPal emerged because of eBay and eBay got super popular and then therefore PayPal got popular so these Technologies as they came they really took their spot because of real demand this is a great position to be in you have real market demand for new type of
(27:59) solution and The Gatekeepers of those days really uh were successful in monopolizing and taking over that uh that part uh coming back to ecash well at that point in history everyone forgot about ecash this was largely ignored and put to bed basically said like the experiment died well wasn't there another important detail to the ecash The digicash Experience particularly and I think eron V weirum wrote about this in the Genesis Book is that it became quasi permissioned and a lot of the cipher punks working or wanting to
(28:36) contribute were sort of boxed out and so this this idea that digicash became this centralized third party in the E the world of ecash sort of was a detriment to its ability to flourish as well yeah this is a very good point so that's that's probably like the the reason number two why everything failed is it needed to be bound to the Fiat system so in order to be able ble to innovate anything you needed to cross these huge gatekeeping gatekeeping organizations so you would have to make a deal with a bank in order to be able to develop
(29:08) anything that is better than the existing thing imagine that today like uh even the slightest Improvement of financial technology needs cooperation with the old guard you need to talk to MasterCard in visa and maybe they'll allow you to use their Network to make transactions right so that is I guess maybe historically speaking even the more important reason is the banking system the Fiat system is fully permissioned the entire stack is permissioned the only non- permissioned part is uh physical cash everything else
(29:40) is permissioned from the Central Bank up to the PayPal transaction that you do to buy a t-shirt so uh not everyone could just enter the game and there were many Cipher punks around in that time like all the cipher punks in that in in that time their frame of reference was CH in ecash everything like when you look at the academic papers from that time everyone's tried to just improve charm in ecash and um even if you came up with a good idea which there are many many out there there are like thousands of academic papers improving TR in eash and
(30:15) none of them have been tried literally none of them have been tried really on a on a larger scale except for Cy cyberbug which is from digicash it's like a play money that they've used for a couple years but nothing that interacted with a real economical uh framework or system so all the good ideas just uh vanished into uh history and um it took another 20 years or so for them to be picked up again now um maybe this is this is an interesting context uh also from the history of uh cryptocurrencies the innovation of
(30:54) Satoshi is um the emancipation of the constraints of chy ecash as I said chy ecash only worked with the corporation of the banks so it required like uh access to the banking system and everyone understood at that time that the biggest problem is centralization so you'd have a single company issuing ecash and that would have to you would have to use that company in order to interact with the larger Financial system and Satoshi then finally after uh now this is almost 40 years after the invention of ecash invented Bitcoin and Bitcoin closes that
(31:35) part of History it is kind of the uh conclusion of that struggle to invent digital money and then finally set it free and Satoshi was able to do that now interestingly or uh trivially he needed to invent a new currency for it you couldn't build this on the dollar it's not possible to decentralize the dollar so he came up with his own currency which we call Bitcoin today which became a major part of the financial system that we're experiencing today now for people like me this is great because I'm still very interested
(32:15) in what the cyer punks have developed in the early in ' 80s and 90s and charming ecash and privacy technology uh but I can now use Bitcoin to build these things that I'm dreaming of and I don't need to go to JP Morgan and ask them hey please Daddy could I use your infrastructure to make a few transactions here and there Jamie please Jamie please please and Jamie says no because Jamie still doesn't understand Bitcoin um but yeah we don't we don't really need them anymore we we don't really think of think about them anymore
(32:52) they're thinking about us it's like they're trying to they're trying to catch up with us now um that's because we have a free system where everyone anyone can join all the Geniuses of the world who do research on this stuff can just directly Implement what they're dreaming of because we have a system that is open for Innovation and everyone who wants to build upon it which is Bitcoin that's why Bitcoin is so truly truly magical the first innovation of Satoshi is just the beginning of a really really big process long
(33:28) Revolution that will be going on for hundreds of years this rip was also brought to you by our good friends at salt of the earth you got to be hydrating Freaks and while you're hydrating got to be getting your electrolytes this is the best electrolytes mix that I've ever come into contact with uh Pink Himalayan salt with calcium magnesium potassium sodium no sugar it tastes incredible my favorite is the orange and the pink lemonade go to drink.
(33:56) com it's drinks.com use the code t FTC when you make your purchase and you'll get 15% off I'm telling you get on it freaks you're going to love this stuff mean in the context of ecash coming back it even took what 12 years after Bitcoin launched when was Eric Syrian the first one to write the uh what was it um uh mini cash the the MVP that he launched I believe was the summer of 2020 or 2021 even um that proved that you could do these chamian banks on these ecash banks on on top of Bitcoin yeah and definitely and we'll get back to Eric and and fedy
(34:33) mint and uh um the leading role that they've played in this process um but uh there is this famous quote by hini himself very early days December 30th 2010 I think I know the one you're referencing where he already I mean scaling was always an issue with Bitcoin right like that that was the first comment on satoshi's email was like this doesn't scale and now here here we're sitting 16 years later and still trying to scale scale this baby to uh conquer the world but yeah they they they saw the same kind of issues uh that we have
(35:10) today but um the first thought that comes to mind when you have a base layer that can be decentralized is like how can we rebuild the banking system on top of that and uh yeah this famous quote by by Alini says that he believes that Bitcoin might become the base currency the interbank exchange currency and allow for new type of banks to pop up that could issue their own virtual currencies on top and that's basically ecash he was talking about ecash without using the word there so it was it that the thought appeared immediately that
(35:48) someone should build an ecash system on top of Bitcoin and this kept reappearing time and time again you can find old posts on Reddit there are couple post on the Bitcoin mating list people just playing with this idea to build ecash on top of Bitcoin um H but it took quite some time until anyone actually did it and my full credit goes there to Eric Syrian true innovator a real Cipher Punk a co-founder of the company called fety and um his first his attempt uh was it it came from a previous system called scit cach scit Cash was was an ecash
(36:28) system that wasn't bound to an existing currency it was kind of only ecash without any base layer and more of a proof of concept I would say it wasn't really built out in a way that it could be used but they laid the foundation to build Federated eash mints which is the foundation of what we call faty Mint today and uh Eric Syrian is the inventor of the FED Min protocol or fed Min project and that's basically um similar to cashew a eash system on top of Bitcoin with the prime difference between the two projects is that Fint is
(37:03) a Federated system meaning that these ecash mints that they're run by multiple uh organizations or multiple keyh holders whereas uh for cashew uh we focus on Simplicity and efficiency basically uh uh mint mints that are operated by single entities but are extremely um low extremely lightweight and and and fast to set up and easy to use yeah and I mean I think that's I don't want to say it's surprised me but it's been really exciting to see fedy Min cashew in the wild and I think it's pretty clear the protocol that you and
(37:41) the other contributors to cashew have built has really enabled this explosion of out of the box experimentation that people have really grabbed on to and run with yeah that's that's that was kind of always the hidden plan behind all this was never to build an application and just call it a day um I've built applications before and I obviously they can have a big impact but uh what we saw there is again A cryptographic Primitive a building block for others to build on so from the very early days of the cashew protocol we decided it's going to
(38:17) be a protocol that uh practically speaking that means when you develop a protocol instead of just an application or just a platform it means that you spell out the language anguage of the system in English terms so you make specifications that are documents PDF documents that describe exactly what's happening and what time and how to communicate between a wallet and the mint and so on and so forth what cryptography to use and we just spelled it out from start to end and we're still working on that protocol extending it
(38:49) with functionality but the reason for that was that we wanted others we wanted others to build on top of that and we've seen exactly that so since we've started the project which is now kesu is around maybe 2 and a half years old project we've had uh dozens of Independent implementations by dozens of independent programmers that all have their own use cases and specific applications that they have in mind um but they can find a repository of specifications which if implemented they can become um compatible with the entire
(39:29) ecosystem so that's one of the one of the benefits of working on protocols although it's uh much uh harder road to walk on it's a slower process U because it involves many people deciding things uh what you end up with is uh something that enables others to lift them up themselves and built upon and yeah the the adoption has been staggering uh our main focus the people we talk to or cater to were always the developers because we're we're still in this early stage where we we focus mostly on those who buildt so they can
(40:13) focus on the users that they want to build for and um we're seeing exactly that and we're seeing now applications of cashew that were never intended in the first place because we couldn't think of all the different ways that you could and um you know you can getting back to the beginning with uh the our our uh alleg allegories to Art and and creativity um instead of painting a simple picture we decided that we want to create the canvas and the brush so others can paint their own and uh this is what really drives adoption and now
(40:56) you know is makes Caso the easiest way to onward people on bitcoin and uh we see a lot of adoption on on Noster which is again a social media protocol or a platform of a whole host of different applications that also need money similar to how the story with eBay went right so you have now lots of different things on the internet and they all kind of need integration with money because we humans we need money to transact and um now people can look at cashew and and uh see if it if it fits their their use case and choose one of the libraries and
(41:41) boom you have an e-cash system inside your application that respects users privacy and allows your users gives them much more control than a traditional custo deal system W what's one of the most surprising implementations applications of ecash that you weren't expecting I think the the most bullish that I'm on currently and like this is it's something that I'm overwhelmed with every month every month I see new applications and new developers that I that just pop up out of nowhere and say hey I've built this and it's just
(42:15) immensely grateful for this but uh right now the most most uh bullish thing that I can think of is um something that a fellow called VN PRC is working on and he's working on a project called hash pools and uh he's using ecash to improve the payouts to Bitcoin mining pools to their to the miners so uh I can just briefly explain the problem um Bitcoin mining pools are basically all custodial in nature uh even if they don't feel like it sometimes because the pool pays out immediately often most of the time it does not pay out immediately but you
(42:57) have just a balance that keeps increasing until you withdraw and the first ideas that were floating around when we started thinking about whether we can also improve Bitcoin mining tools using ecash uh were just simply focusing on the fact that you could uh pay out the miner with ecash and then the miner could decide at any point to withdraw the ecash back to the lightning wallet for example so the intermittent time where you are in a custodial relationship with the mining pool could be improved by using ecash instead of
(43:32) just a stupid Excel Ledger table what does this improve to the for the miner first of all you can use the mining pool without creating an account and this is great for minor privacy it is actually very very important to improve mining privacy because uh mining is the Eis heal of Bitcoin it is one of the most fragile parts of the Bitcoin system in terms of regulation or um you know take over by by governments so um ecash mining pools that pay out their users the mining uh The Miner uh in ecash would allow them
(44:12) to use their service without having to register an account without having to give them your onchain address or your lightning address um you could just simply turn on your Miner and connect to the pool and start Mining and as soon as the mining pool either finds a block or depending on the payout scheme uh after a certain time has has expired you would then just get ecash directly from the mining pool and that e-cash is like an IOU it says like this mining pool owes you that and this much uh satoshis and the nice thing about it is the mining
(44:44) pool is not able to track you as an individual Miner it wouldn't be able to know that you're the same Miner who mined yesterday it wouldn't be able to know how much you've mined in the last year it wouldn't even necessarily have to know you know what are your uh withdrawal addresses uh on onchain addresses and be able to connect individual payouts to each other and then being able to see you know what you're doing with the Bitcoin that you've earned so um I'm I'm very very bullish this is just a basic way of
(45:16) doing it vprc is working on a way better system in which uh the the reward is not only paid out uh when a block is mined but also before a block is mind so that the payout can be more regular and um the nice thing about this is if you issue the the potential future reward as a bare instrument like ecash that allows uh the users to trade this uh instrument before even the block is found so uh in his proposal in his project it's built on stratum V2 it is it's very fascinating it's He is building it for bidx uh the the home Miner uh his whole
(45:56) vision is to enable ple miners to regain more control and to uh you know decrease the the the that say the discrepancy between what a large minor can do and what a ple minor can do at home and um if you are able to uh to put the eash he calls it eash that's a beautiful name into a into a um bare instrument then you're you're allowing the miners to trade this and use it similar to a future instrument for a potential block reward that might come in the future and this can allow miners to hatch against the risk way more safely and uh develop
(46:41) a a hash Price Market to emerge it's kind of like onp over my over top of my head because uh I'm not a financial instruments guy uh but I think it serves also as a good example of what people do that we have never thought about um and what I'm most happy about this specific project is that i' I've said this now uh in this part before we those who are building the cashew system we benefit from the existence of Bitcoin like we're kind of leeching on the existence or the success of Bitcoin the only reason why we can build cash
(47:20) today is because Bitcoin has these properties and uh this is the first project where I truly have the feeling that ecash can become a benefit for Bitcoin itself so kind of giving back to to the mother to the mother of all protocols and improving mining I think is a very worthwhile thing to do yeah I mean and it goes back to Hal's post too I think a lot of what you just described leads me to appreciate the interoperability of these open systems even more so you have Bitcoin the base layer obviously you have these chami and
(47:55) mints um and and then you mentioned lightning like withdrawing the lightning we haven't even brought up applications within Noster but you have this sort of fractal progression of applications and use cases that are emerging due to the the sort of interoperability of all these different open networks and you can again what you just described is the emergence of this new way of doing B Banking and Financial um Financial products and the the hash rate problem the centralization of mining pools specifically is a big one in
(48:31) privacy is one of the Achilles heels for for Miners and being able to shift the the asymmetric advantage that these large mining pools have is a massive benefit to bitcoin which is funny because it's enabled by this interoperability so you're seeing the symbiotic relationship between all these protocols emerge and for the longest time going back to the scaling debate within Bitcoin everybody's like squinting at the problem in saying ah you're not going to be able to scale on chain you're not going to be able to
(49:00) scale at lightning we're going to need all these other shitcoins to scale payments and all that we're going to need dedicated blockchains for all these different use cases but I think a lot of that comes from uh a high time preference that has emerged in our high velocity trash economy uh over the last 30 to 50 years and if you really take a step back and let these ideas germinate and these tools get built you can really see how being being patient and letting everything mature to the point where this interoperability is as easy not
(49:35) only as it is today but I believe it will get much easier moving forward and and you can see how this canvas is beginning to to get filled in with with a beautiful piece of art that can ultimately replace the incumbent banking system oh yeah we're going to scale this without shitcoins that's for sure and um this type of Technology Building on top of Bitcoin also attracts the right kind of people so um all these projects that I've talked about and cashew itself is something that doesn't allow you to do a pump and dump there is no token
(50:08) associated with it there is no shitcoin that could make me Rich uh or throw me off rails basically I do this because I want to build on bitcoin I want to improve Bitcoin and my incentives are very clear and those who join me or join us uh their incentives are completely aligned with the incentives of anyone participating and improving Bitcoin and I mean this is just for me all this stuff is just background noise it comes and it goes and I just I don't even pay that much attention uh anymore because the moment you start understanding one
(50:42) thing it blows up and is replaced by the next thing um as I said I I like to think of our future in a way way larger time scale and I think we're in one of the most important times that we ever had that we will ever have again it is the transition from the non-digital world into a digital world we have only one shot we need to do this right in terms of priorities and urgency about particular priorities what do you think people should be focusing on developers out there who may be listening to this specifically well I think uh we all need
(51:22) to as I I mean it's clear that I'm a p privacy Advocate and we all need to take privacy a lot more serious this does not mean that you need to hide your face like a crazy person like I am or um do everything as a Nim and so on but just to have a conscious understanding of who you are asking for permission when you live your life and uh this is something that we all need to be a lot more aware of and especially the developers need to um be a lot more aware of and secondly I think maybe the what comes to mind is is
(51:58) that we need just we need more developers we need a lot more developers the many people focus on the Bitcoin price for example I I know that the Bitcoin price is going to go up it's like it's not that interesting for me it just goes up and it doesn't go down it just fluctuates upwards and it will do that because it's programmed to do that what's not programmed is whether Bitcoin will be built and kept Alive by people by people those are our individual decisions and so we need to increase largely increase the number of
(52:32) developers that we have we have a constant lack of innovation a constant lack of developers and uh for that we need to work on our culture we need to work on our messaging and uh engage a lot more with the world we cannot build this in isolation by closing off we can build our little projects and our little citadels without having to engage with anyone but then we will fail um we are currently racing first against a technological dystopia that will come if we don't do anything against it and secondly we're also racing against
(53:14) cbdcs uh the central Bankers aren't sleeping and they are being paid to do their work uh good thing is that they are very slow they are way slower than a uh a startup could be or a you know a high-tech company could be it's still very bureaucratic but they keep on turning on and the cbdc is going to come so we need to be able to provide a safe alternative for people who don't want any of that and uh we will see a world where there is no physical cash anymore and everyone will be forced to use digital money and and the question is what
(53:58) type uh I hope that everyone will be able to use a free and open source system like Bitcoin that is made from the people for the people that allows us to choose how much privacy we want to have how much control we want to have over our money that allows us to uh to store our wealth without permission and to make payments without being tracked yeah and this is something we've been talking about on the side off and on over the last week which is something that obviously running a media company I focus on a lot is narrative and I think
(54:33) if going back to meeting people where they are and communicating and framing things properly that's one thing I think I'm going to be focusing on more in the coming years is the framing of this privacy obviously Matt and I talk a lot about on Rabbit Hole recap we've had plenty of privacy Advocates uh here on tftc throughout the years but I think again going back to the point that you made which is we are at this pivotal crucial moment I think the the main focus needs to be on financial privacy over the next few years
(55:02) particularly um and I think we've seen particularly with ESG Dei that if you do speak up and frame things correctly and and put good points out there people that'll resonate with people it will connect and ultimately the bad ideas will get pushed out and the better ideas will will will emerge and win out in the long run but framing narrative and good messaging is important and when it comes to financial privacy obviously since 1970 funnily enough uh with the bank secrecy act here or not here but in the United States
(55:40) that has uh really devolved into this surveillance Financial dystopia that we've been discussing I believe a lot of the core of the problems with financial privacy stem from this one act that I think we should attempt to abolish but before we even get to the point of being able to abolish it it's really framing the narrative why Financial privacy is good um and why the the tried andr tropes that the regulators and people will fearmonger over Financial privacy put out there terrorism moneya laundering um drugs
(56:19) whatever it may be you're letting you're letting the Bad actors win because everything we've been discussing here like that's what Ates me the most about this discussion about financial privacy and the inability of regulators to let Innovation uh in a Banking and Financial application sense flourish is it all anchors back to oh no you can't do that because uh we can't surveil you it's you're literally letting the terrorists win when you say that 100% this is exactly what what we are in right now they are controlling
(56:50) the narrative it's not us and it might feel for some that we are because you're thinking of a smaller world that that that there is but the world is really really large and most people don't care about what we say right now and so this is it's not only about being right it's also about winning an argument and those are two different things as uh you know as most people will know but it requires rhetorics and knowing what's going on outside the world that you move in and acquiring their own their their language
(57:22) and meeting people where they are and I just to repeat um we've gone through the same thing with private messenging uh when when people were talking about privacy and messenging it was associated with child sexual sexual abuse material uh terrorist financing and uh all sorts of criminal activity and that was the first Association that a Normy on the street would have when you say encrypted chat today encrypted chat means I can be free and I can send a love letter to my loved one without being intercepted this is
(58:01) commonly regarded part of Freedom U that we have today we have still the entire road to walk on uh in terms of financial privacy and we need to walk it I think it it would be good to walk it in the same way by finding people who can transport this message appropriately to the appropriate people and show that it's not only the bad guys who want Financial privacy it's mostly 99.
(58:36) 9% the good guys who also require Financial privacy um I think people like Alex gladin are doing an amazing job by communicating uh the idea of Bitcoin the ideals of Bitcoin and the um the opportunities that it gives us to a world that is uh first like outside of this techn bubble um but uh there is like the on a political realm on a societal realm there's there's so much to do and I hope we won't get there by making huge mistakes uh it can also you know some people wish that something explodes and then people get hurt and that's how they find the good thing I
(59:14) hope that that's not going to be the way although this might be what we end up with um but uh I hope that not a a massive data leak that doxes half of the planet uh will be it but rather that we can um that we can provide positive and constructive uh arguments why uh this is important for everyone yeah again like the frustration of letting the baddies win and I don't I don't think it's I think the The Regulators and a lot of people um in the financial realm understand that this Tech technology is probably good but they like their Moes
(59:58) and they like having control but I think it's important to get the narrative outside of that bubble and into the minds of of the lay and the common man if you will Financial privacy is good and not only that like the technology the stack the banking stack that is emerging on Bitcoins you have Bitcoin lightning ecash Arc is pretty interesting to me Noster creating this messaging layer um that that can set pass messages between all these different layers that are Op interoperable with each other like the high-tech sci-fi applications that can
(1:00:33) be built are mind-blowing when you sit there to think about and the thought of uh being pigeon hold and boxed into the traditional Financial system and only being able to innovate there is completely demoralizing and I think that's one part of the message and financial privacy is just a part of that sci-fi future I mean interoperability the applications that you can build are the power and the the Privacy I would argue is not just an added benefit but it's just a feature of the system that that is emerging and I think that's one
(1:01:08) thing from a messaging perspective that we need to do as bitcoiners is say we can build the Sci-Fi Financial system of the future like these are the tools that are going to get us to that that place it's not getting a license with JP Morgan and setting up a broker dealer or wirehouse to be able to do this it's it's this interoperable open- Source these interoperable open source protocols that anybody can build on that's where the Innovation is going to come from yes and um it's not only privacy that we are improving we're also
(1:01:40) improving functionality where we're making things possible that weren't possible before um such as true microtransactions for example so an e-cash system allows you to make real microtransactions with what what I mean by that is subsense payments that take a couple milliseconds to settle for example um another thing is that uh I think this is also interesting for the audience to to realize is that because ecash is a barrier instrument uh which means that kind of think again like physical cash that you take out of the ATM you can use
(1:02:17) it without internet so the fact that you can go into a bar and make have to pay with your Bitcoin wallet without having to be online is is mind-blowing this is like this is where we need to be this is what we need to achieve in order to um to replace MasterCard and Visa uh but this the the same uh property of being able to make offline payments is also what gives uh you fantastic privacy properties so uh it's it's a whole package of uh of of Innovations and privacy is just a small part of it and I think this is also um a a narrative that
(1:03:00) we should focus on is that um you don't have to believe in privacy in order to use these systems they just give you also more ability and more control and privacy can also be as a seen as a side effect of of these uh things similar to for example using lightning so in EN lightening you'll be you you're able to make Bitcoin transactions that settle almost instantly and uh the fact that it's onion routed is is something that is technically necessary for a system where everyone can pay everyone basically so it needs
(1:03:37) to hop hop through multiple lightning nodes in order to until it reaches the end but the same method also gives you great privacy as the payer so um maybe something also to keep in mind of as a developer is that uh we can we can put our own ideal into the software that we built and we can uh package things in such a way that they give a you know comprehensive collection of these ideas uh that uh users can use um in a in a whole package yeah I think we're going to win but is going to take people taking agency over
(1:04:21) their own lives and getting off their ass and actually building this stuff and that's the one thing that's been incredibly encouraging to see emerge from the cashew protocol and the culture around it is this idea of you can build immediately come test it out and seeing the applications that are being built whether it's eash um to fix the mining pools uh things like uh what Boardwalk is doing with their with their application the stability pools and um uh just on Noster wallets implementing andup docash and giving people who join
(1:05:01) the Noster protocol a wallet out of the out of the gate so they can receive Bitcoin I think like that use case is incredible you download a a Noster client iris. two or something like that and boom you're able to receive money you essentially have a bank account immediately from downloading a piece of software it is quite crazy yeah I'm um like this is this pumps me up so much uh the the the true Innovation there is is Pablo's nip 60 this is something that most no clients are looking into right now just as a small short summary of
(1:05:38) what this allows you to do is right now in Noster Noster Works in a way that you have a key pair so you have a private key and a public key it's an nsec and an npop and that nsec that allows you to kind of log in everywhere so the first magical experience that everyone has with Noster is the they generate an nsec then they use one client and then someday they learn there are more clients out there and maybe they want to use a different client because they don't like the first one anymore so they take their insect and put it into the
(1:06:07) second client that they've just downloaded and boom everything just appears like your whole profile all the people you're following all the posts that you that you're reading and your comments and so on like everything just rears and this is like the true power of Nosa which gives the user control to switch as easy as possible nothing can lock you in and that's amazing and uh this was this was quite hard to achieve with uh a Bitcoin wallet itself so your wallet would typically be bound to the client that you were using and as soon
(1:06:39) as you want to move the client then you would have to take care of that wallet somehow either empty it or do something with it always like a friction for users and now with nip 60 nip 60 basically allows you to have an e-cash wallet inside your Noster client that stores the ecash on the nosta relay so that means you can have the same experience as with the posts that you can take your nsec and move to another client and see everything reappear and the same can be true also for your money it means that you can take your money with you
(1:07:11) basically take your and say go to the next client everything lows up and there are your sets and you can immediately start zapping again yeah it might scare people your ecash shits on the relay but you need your nsec to unlock the ecash oh yeah yeah everything is completely encrypted and by the way everything we say it sounds super complicated but all the time we keep the normi user in mind like my prot prototypical user in mind is the old lady on a Brazilian Beach selling mongos for Bitcoin like I want to cater to her I want her to have the
(1:07:42) best privacy possible the best functionality possible without having to understand anything what's going on so the goal is always peep that's like tap to pay you're done yeah and thinking of the Brazilian grandmother selling mangoes on a beach just go to and say hey download this application broadcasts the world that you're out here selling mangoes to draw attention to your business and then oh in the same application you can receive payments as well yeah and it's it goes even further than that um so with these integrated
(1:08:12) Bitcoin wallets inside Noster uh we can build real circular economies and I I don't mean just people zapping each other in a circle but literal trades that happens inside so one one example of that is is um let's say you make a post on on highlighter you write an article because you're a journalist and people really like that and they can zap you and you receive the those sets and you put them uh directly you see them appear in your highlighter client now you can take the same insect and you can go to shopster for example shopster is a
(1:08:45) is a decentralized Marketplace built on Noster uses all the same Primitives you can take your nsec and put it into Shop store and see your money reappear there and you can use that money to buy a phone that can be sent to you in physical space so uh this is actually happening people are earning money on Noster and spending the same money on Noster without leaving the protocol and without having to install any additional software is quite magical the only thing that you need to keep is your ansec and with that you can move anywhere and take
(1:09:15) everything with you yeah and I mean I think you've been if I feel comfortable saying this cuz you've been um sending notes about it and we've talked about but you're you're becom more convinced that no is going to be an incredible bootstrapping mechanism for Bitcoin itself yeah absolutely I was um I mean I I'm I'm a big fan of tips and zaps and all this like my my half of my life I've spent Building Systems where people can do that and I I I think the internet is supposed to be uh monetizing through peer-to-peer interactions and uh that's
(1:09:48) a whole another discussion uh with the advertising model that we've gone gone with uh instead of the peer-to-peer payments model that uh people in the early days have envisioned but again that's another discussion um however what I'm seeing right now I'm getting more more convinced is that uh maybe the best way to onboard someone a completely naive person who doesn't know about Bitcoin yet um maybe it's easier to onboard them to Noster actually than to bitcoin because you get Bitcoin for free when you're a Noster you get everything
(1:10:21) in a in a package and it's in a context so the context really makes people understand what's happening there when you start get your first sets because like one of your Bitcoin or friends gave you a wallet to Satoshi and give you 10,000 sets there and you just felt this instant transfer most people are like great but what do I do with the Bitcoin now like 10,000 sets is not enough to really take security super serious and maybe not enough to get into the entire Bitcoin rabbit hole and understand what's what it's about and start
(1:10:54) stacking yourself or something like that um but what do I do with these 10,000 sets and with Noster that question just doesn't arise you just you you you enter Noster you start uh making posts and people start zapping you and then you acquire a few hundred a few thousand zaps uh sets as zaps and the first thing that you can do immediately is to just zap it on to someone else so you become a recipient and the center of value inside Noster and no one asks like what do I do with the Bitcoin on Noster it just like if you don't know what to do
(1:11:27) with it just zap it on and you can just also keep it in your nsec soon you'll just keep the nsec and the money will be there with you when you log in like in a week again when you think of nosta for the second time or something but um having a way to receive and send in a context I think that's truly powerful uh I think uh basically all the all the questions they answer themselves if you can embed the user in an ecosystem right away yeah I was talking with um a bitcoiner at the event that we were at last week and he was explaining to me
(1:12:01) that in the town that he lives in they have a lot of merchants that accept Bitcoin and he's literally been living off of zaps like he'll get he'll make post Get Zapped acquire balance and then in Meet space go to the The Butcher and buy some staks and just use the zaps straight from his wallet and pay the butcher I'm sure do Stakes were delicious though but it is emerging and it does seem C and it is I think the ultimate goal of sitting down with you in person thank you for doing this by the way um my pleasure is to introduce the world to
(1:12:42) artists like yourself working on this and more importantly the fact that there's a lot of as the price of Bitcoin goes up what happens with this show is people looking to learn about Bitcoin come to learn about Bitcoin but many get distract Ed with the siren calls of shitcoins defi web 3.
(1:13:03) 0 whatever it may be whatever the meme of the week is and I love bringing I love having you on the show because I think again I said it on Money Matters and I'll reiterate it now I think what you're working on is the signal the true infrastructure that will lead us to a new banking system built on bitcoin it's going to take time it's going to take effort it's not going to happen overnight it's going to take a lot of patience uh by the individuals who expect these things to just hit the market it's not going to happen that way but if you squint and you actually begin
(1:13:35) experimenting with the tools you can see where this is going and I think it is imperative that anybody particularly anybody new out there or maybe even people have been in Bitcoin for a while and have um uh Cast Away Noster or ecash whatever it may be to begin using the tools and seeing it cuz once you use it like that's the crazy thing of the last two weeks uh I didn't bring a lot of cash down here I made the mistake of not hitting the ATM uh and getting cash and a lot of places are cash only and I've had to bum um bum some tabs off of
(1:14:08) friends but immediately I'm able to open Primal find them in my contacts and just zap them and that use case alone like replacing Beno with this web of Trust on Noster with an embedded Bitcoin wallet is incredibly useful for me it is the most important thing to try these things out for yourself because uh you won't be you don't you don't experience the magic of this by just listening to two dudes talking about it you you must experience yourself and uh although we're early all of what we've talked about already
(1:14:42) exists like this is not just we're not drawing uh ideas here uh you can try this yourself look you can go to cash.me C a.me that's uh a web wallet for cashew it's just one of like a dozen different cash wallets it doesn't lock you in you can just it's one of the things that you can try and find a mint and start using it as a as a lightning wallet for example you can it's it's one of the best custodial lightning wallets that you can have and um make payments and receive payments uh if you're more well vers and you're running a service you're
(1:15:19) running um let's say a video streaming platform or you're selling something online you have any kind of software that gives users a balance then you can run a cash mint as well so you can research how to do it's super simple to set up all you need is a lightning Noe and that's basically it and you can uh you can issue ecash to your users and the user and the users can use it on on in your platform for example and uh so all this stuff is already there and more and more people are using it the most important thing is that you try it out
(1:15:54) uh if you only if you convert that St that zap into a stake you know that is real uh that was my first experience the first time I bought I think it was beer something with Bitcoin except for just stacking it I understood that this stuff is actual money it is money it's just money it's de it's very simple to understand kie it was a pleasure sir I know uh I know it must be painstaking for you to wear the mask through an hourong interview I Was Born This Way any final messages for the freaks other than that yeah go to cashew
(1:16:36) dospace if you're interested that's c c. space uh you can find all the information there if you want uh if you're a developer and this inspired you look into Cash we're always looking for contributors if you have any ideas how you could use these systems to improve your own Tech technical stack um try it out you can reach out to me directly I'll always show you around and help you to get into this and if you're a developer listening to this and um you're not particularly interested in Cashew then please consider becoming a
(1:17:11) Bitcoin developer um we need all the help that we can get we can only build the system in an open source and uh collaborative Manner and uh I can assure you that working on a huge project like this will give you life F fulfillment and um motivation to keep going you don't have to work for a company that you don't like which is unfortunately most of the people that I know who work in Tech to so please consider it and help us to reach you know to prevent U massive dystopia from emerging and on the contrary to build
(1:17:51) the Utopia that we want to see uh no one else is going to do that for us so join us join us peace and love freaks
