podcasts
Swiss financial analyst Pascal Hügli explores Bitcoin's transformative potential as a global financial barometer and strategic national asset.
Swiss financial analyst Pascal Hügli discussed Bitcoin’s potential to transform financial and geopolitical landscapes, emphasizing its trajectory as a strategic asset for governments to hedge economic risks and empower citizens through wealth preservation. He highlighted Bitcoin’s role as a "global liquidity barometer," reacting swiftly to financial and geopolitical events like the U.S. election, positioning it as both an indicator and a safe haven during crises. Hügli also praised decentralized prediction markets like PolyMarket, which outperformed traditional media in forecasting outcomes, demonstrating the power of real-time, bias-resistant decision-making. He explored how institutional adoption and stablecoins complement Bitcoin by preserving dollar dominance while offering a decentralized store of value, arguing that adopting Bitcoin as a strategic reserve could enhance national resilience and financial credibility.
This podcast highlighted Bitcoin’s transformative potential, from acting as a global financial barometer to becoming a strategic national asset, poised to reshape economies and geopolitical strategies. Hügli emphasized the urgency of early adoption by governments, institutions, and individuals to stay competitive in an evolving financial landscape. The episode leaves a pressing question: Is the world ready for Bitcoin’s rise as a central pillar of the global financial system, with implications spanning sovereign adoption and financial inclusion?
0:00 - Intro
0:52 - The European mind can't comprehend Trump victory
9:37 - Prediction markets
24:37 - Bitkey & Coinkite
26:35 - Trump's approach to bitcoin
36:41 - SOTE
37:14 - America leading the charge on bitcoin
45:37 - Has hyperbitcoinization been pulled forward?
50:09 - Bitcoin credit products
57:39 - Supercycle?
1:10:26 - Price targets
1:13:24 - Interesting times
(00:00) the next Target will probably be gold itself which would be around $600,000 per Bitcoin and then it's probably the treasury market that we're eyeing and we will have a lot more upside as well Pascal hugley is a Swiss financial analyst author and educator specializing in digital assets and Bitcoin he has written on topics like the impact of Central Bank policies on investment strategies and the evolving landscape of digital currencies today we'll discuss Trump's Victory and its implications for Bitcoin growing institutional acceptance
(00:30) the potential of a super cycle and much more I have a feeling myself that we could be at this Tipping Point some government will start I mean we have seen El Salvador starting with this in 2021 but there will probably or it just assumes it's it's inevitable that at some point some other government will do this Pascal is very exciting I'm going I want to warn you I got two hours of sleep last night I stay up till 4:00 a.m.
(01:02) my 2-year-old slapped me in the face at 6:00 a.m. it was uh an unexpected result here in the United States I think many people myself included thought Trump had a good chance of winning but many Americans were resigned to the process taking much longer than than a day there was expectations that it would take days if not weeks to count the votes and get a final result uh in terms of who won the election but we had a Swift Red Wave Wash across the United States yesterday it looks like we've won the presidency the Senate and the House of
(01:39) Representatives I believe last I checked and so it seems like President Trump has resounding support of the American people uh and it been handed a mandate to push through the policies that he campaigned on and as I was mentioning right before we hit record I was excited that you DM me and that you're excited about what's happening here in the United States because you have a perspective being over in Switzerland so what what uh what is getting you excited about this well yeah sure hey Marty thanks for having me no what's getting me excited I
(02:15) mean in the end obviously it's it's the combination of a lot of things you know yeah I mean it's it's there was one thing that there is like uh at least if you see or hear around here in Europe in Switzerland and other plac is maybe like people as well you know they were expecting or like at least they were hoping I guess for Harris to win like uh and it was always taken as something yeah which is it's a given you know that she would win and then obviously we there are these polls that are being shown around also out of Europe you know
(02:52) how people would have um like voted if if they had a chance to do this you know and it was probably even crazier than in the US like like in Switzerland maybe 78% or something would have gone for for Harris at least I mean that's that's just polls and you know some extra polation so you don't know if you can take it like really serious but still it's kind of crazy and and and things just again turned out this differently or turn out differently you know and that's what I found so interesting obviously it's also kind of as we have
(03:25) probably as you have talked with other guests before as I have talked many times before my colleagues again it's yet another example of of Legacy Media mainstream media whatever you want to call it kind of failing you know on on a on a variety of of of topics and then also fronts you know and then obviously Bitcoin you know which is something that's near and dear to my heart which now seems to be also getting more support so that's probably why I'm so excited to just uh be living at this time where all these things are coming
(03:59) together and uh also kind of like markets you know that was also a big takeaway for me when I was following this like the prediction Market thing you know just amazing how how like more accurate I would say they they were in all of this and just uh yeah showing that uh it's either trust the market or trust the media and I think the markets have have won once again you know so and that was that's that's everything was interesting or that's all like which is what is interesting to me yeah yeah it's the way you described it's almost like
(04:33) the uh the meme the European mind can't comprehend this come to life with with one event what is it psychologically socially over in Europe from your perspective that would drive people to favor somebody like Camala Harris over Donald Trump yeah it's kind of here I haven't uh contemplated this in in much detail I have to have to say I mean originally I studed politics in in University you know so I was I had this initial interest in politics but then have a more kind of yeah just everything like reality and things happening in real
(05:10) life kind of drove me away from this you know and and I ever Drew closer to markets you know because I think uh that's more where reality is at and I'm I'm more comfortable dealing with this and that's probably also something why I was driven to Bitcoin in the first place then you know so I haven't like contemplated this in any meaningful de you know but still I would say yeah it's just interesting uh Europe it's probably more than the the US you know like having this um yeah I don't know how to call it maybe uh
(05:45) people have lived too well for too long you know and that's why they have kind of uh accustomed to this feeling that government is always there and kind of needs to protect you and and and it's just the ultimate Authority and then if you have somebody like Trump you know which kind of also teamed up with these I would say in in the typical European mind the the evildoers you know uh the M Tech billionaires the the the true market capitalists you know then it's it's this cocktail that many people don't like and that's why they're
(06:23) categorically are opposed to to something like this you know and if you really talk to the general leftish people over here you know all they can reiterate is like saying okay Trump you know they they it's all just personal you know because he's this person who has sexually abused some people he was convicted and now the American mind can can still go ahead and and and kind of vote somebody like him into office which is just crazy you know but I feel like they don't really evaluate this in terms of policies you know where I would maybe
(06:59) sometimes even say well Trump is kind of too far for me you know coming maybe from a Libertarian background and stuff but it's more at hom inam and they're just EV valuing this like uh from from their personal views and maybe the the the poll maybe you've seen it uh shared around on Twitter it was this poll that was taken all throughout Europe you know where people were asked how they how they voted and I mean what's really interesting is that like the countries that would have gone and voted for Trump or maybe like uh predominantly for Trump
(07:32) they are all the countries in Eastern Europe you know countries that maybe at some point in time experienced true socialism you know and and all the other countries uh which are way more in favor of camela Harris for some reason are the other countries in Europe so that's also something to point out which is interesting yeah I saw Alan farington share that chart with a with a funny quip in a tweet yeah and uh it is fascinating and I think a lot large part whether it's socially driven by the Tendencies of countries in Western
(08:04) Europe to favor more collectivist collectivist policy but going to the ad hominins I think the mainstream media both here in the United States and abroad has done individuals the world over um grave disservice over many years but particularly leading up to this campaign that's what I think Not only was this election um a massive signal of support for Trump and the policies that he's putting forth but it's also a massive signal for the delegitimization of the mainstream media particularly here in the United States
(08:42) because if you were here in the leadup to the election watching what the mainstream media was putting out there and how they were positioning both candidates it was very biased and and they were objectively misleading people whether whether that was in the mischaracterization of Donald Trump uh or the projected support for each candidate and that's something that has really been a growing Trend over I believe the last three presidential elections here the United States is you're seeing in parallel the um delegitimization of the
(09:23) media but also the the polls that that are used to sway perception around the election particularly in the leadup to the election the polls have been rendered completely useless uh in the last 12 years yeah exactly I mean that that what that's something I found particularly interesting you know being from Europe and Switzerland you know with the time delay so I was like okay but I was following this as well you know but I was kind of looking at these as I already mentioned these prediction markets you know and one being this poly
(09:55) Market thing you know which uh has been floating around and whatever people think of it you know it's it's h it's something which is really interesting because I I I read this this morning that there were like $3.6 billion traded on this presidential election which is to me quite significant and and and and and like seems to be like a break Market that was there you know and one one or two things that struck me is really because uh obviously as I said the time delay I wanted to go to bed at some point you know but when I was going to
(10:27) bed maybe at like two or three o'clock my time I was already quite assured that Trump is going to win you know and this is really because I wasn't following any news from any major major Outlet or something I was just looking at these poly Market stats you know and and you have like these two findings that I would see it's like poly Market was way more accurate like this prediction Market on on forecasting uh going into the election you know on the forecast and also um it called the election almost in real time you know way before
(11:00) media did you know and that to me is just again markets winning over like media and centralized U hubs of information you know because like these prediction markets they distill inputs from many diverse actors to produce prices obviously you know and that transend then sort of these confirmation biases and that's so interesting that that a market is just uh yeah where where we're information comes together and and is distilled and then in the end it's it's the outright truth or real that's that's there and that's what I
(11:31) found so interesting you know that just by following this um you could very well be ahead of the herd in in predicting this as well and it just shows you know how the media is playing or the mainstream Legacy Media is playing these games you know by by trying to tell the audience it's it's a close game where in reality it was not you know and they are also kind of really hating on these prediction Market you know calling them out as something yeah it's only like uh Trump loving crypto Bros from outside the US who use this but in the end again
(12:07) this doesn't matter you know with markets markets they don't care about identity it's just people you know that have skin in the game and that kind of um we're using this and that's what I find interesting you know again that this seemed to be really for the first time with such a liquid Market that we've seen markets um triumphing over over as I said centralized media Hops and I think in the future there will be a lot more of this hopefully sometimes in the future built on bitcoin or around Bitcoin as well so that's what I find so
(12:39) so fascinating yeah and the concept of prediction markets particularly within Bitcoin circles cyppher Punk Circle circles more broadly has been talked about for quite some time essentially the theorizing over a decade ago that if we were able to have this free market of predictions enabled by a free market for money um a li a liquid Market with money that cannot be censored you you could um get better information around particular events and there have been prediction markets in the past predict it but I think it has pretty centralized rails
(13:14) particularly from an monetary perspective and I think this is the first US election elections are probably uh at least to date the the biggest markets which uh attract liquidity for predictions around particular events and it feels like this was an inflection point for the trajectory of prediction markets um poly Market regardless of what you think about uh it being built on an alternative cryptocurrency rail it is objectively true that it was massively successful and did provide significant signal to the market and lead up to the
(13:51) election and so what does this mean moving forward in your mind well yeah what does it mean I mean for me it kind of means markets are just going to win on so many fronts going forward you know I think Bitcoin is the prime example with a market winning in money you know and and that's what we're already seeing and I think something like polym Market is really something yeah in in the realm of information again you know and of of of predicting stuff you know which becomes ever more prevalent in today's world you know with
(14:23) things happening with financial markets which make up a huge uh junk of everybody's daily life unfort you know because uh everyone has to become a Speculator nowadays you know but then obviously yeah this is something people want to turn to and and that's what I find so interesting so in the end I think this is where it's it's going to go you know that it seems like uh yeah with Bitcoin for the past 16 years you know it's just one big proof that uh a finance or like a free market in in money is is so much better or in
(14:56) reality like kind of depicts reality that much better better and that's why more and more people are kind of flocking to it and for me now this thing with poly Market was again yeah another approve of this you know and and this doesn't mean that PO Market will be will just be going on crazily you know and that the liquidity will still be there but it was another proof and whenever big interesting things happen in the world I mean this is at least for me where I will turn to uh next you know and and and uh increasingly get my my
(15:28) information and all my my inputs from from something like this and and that's what I find fascinating in the end yeah yeah it was interesting too because obviously a poly Market where you have these predetermined events that you can then go bed on and as you approach the event the the odds of a particular outcome change depending on the confidence of of that outcome happening um but we also have Bitcoin reacting to this in real time too Bitcoin was acting as a sort of separate prediction Market that the price shot up to 71,000 then I
(16:03) believe like 10 minutes later went up to 72 half an hour later up to 73 so like as it was becoming clear on poly market and um within people who were actually able to read the te Leafs and see what was going on that trump it seemed that Trump was going to win resoundingly like the price of Bitcoin started shooting up as well um which is a bullish signal and we've seen this in other events too not necessarily the price going up but um Bitcoin does act maybe not as a prediction Market but a global alarm system in times of liquidity crunches or
(16:34) crises I think most recently October 7th of last year was a great example of that where you had um Hamas attack Israel on a Saturday and the only market trading at the time was Bitcoin which dumped I believe 10% um and that was a signal like there's going to be some chaos in the markets on Monday yeah for sure yeah exactly I mean as you said Bitcoin is really this Global liquidity barometer so to say you know and uh yeah there there's also some truth in this but then poly Market yeah we just said saw it uh in real time you
(17:06) know during these elections I may maybe one more point on this you know that might be interesting for everyone to to hear because that was an observation I also made and I saw some other people comment this comment on this as well you know that it was actually really moving in real time you know as I said like this this this this uh information coming in because I think it was well um dis or it could be well discovered when you you had like these poly Market prediction uh outcomes you know and and people were looking at them and then
(17:37) obviously as these uh first states in the US came in you know and votes were counted and you could kind of see okay um these polls that people had Trump for example is is is like significantly outperforming them he's doing a lot better in reality than the polls were saying you know then obviously some of the like really smart and Savvy people were going okay this is probably a mistake that um is not random you know and it's probably if the polls are wrong in some States they're probably also wrong uh almost to the same extent in in
(18:13) other states as well you know and then that was actually the case when then that these Traders on poly markets they saw that and that was then when they kind of were were that Trump was getting a lot more votes than expected in some states that were not as competitive that they were then kind of suggesting okay um we don't have to wait on on other other outcomes in swing States because we can extrapolate this you know these these um like uh in I would say um the things that the votes were were in accurate you know in these other states
(18:46) and that that that was kind of if you know what I mean it was was um how would I say extrapolated and that's why they already knew okay in other swing States even though votes are not counted we know that um yeah there there there there's not going to be any any discrepancy so to say you know that was that was the interesting thing that I also figured and then people could kind of way earlier settle on on high probabilities that that Trump is going to win in these states as well and so that was also quite an interesting
(19:19) observation for me so to say if you know what I mean yeah yeah you can see the trends materializing in the states that are reporting voting numbers earlier than others and again like you said extrapolate that well this trend is happening here you have a certain demographic of people thinking a certain way in this part of the country it's likely that that same demographic in another part of the country is thinking the same way as well so it would make sense to vote that he's going to win or bet that he's going to win um and it's
(19:49) fascinating like what I mean just to tie up the not on prediction markets before we get into um like the bigger implication that Trump getting in the office has on bitcoin uh as a whole uh like do you think we see drastic changes and how people interact with these events and the information around them moving forward well I mean probably not everyone obviously you know because some people uh I think these things will never trickle down to them you know because they are just not uh they still kind of believe okay this was just
(20:26) random you know and it's not the way uh I will interact in the future because I think there's still a general distrust in markets you know and that's why exactly then some people were really calling it [ __ ] you know like H it's not going to happen and then these poly markets must be wrong it must be or like prediction Mark must be wrong it must be manipulated and this is just general like to me a sort of a a or an expression of a a general distrust in Market you know and and and and and not believing that something like this in
(20:57) information can also uh um yeah lead to great price Discovery and then obviously to to more accurate predictions you know so I think like a lot of people will remain skeptical but the ones probably um that that kind of maybe have a natural tendency to flock to something like this the ones that are probably already kind of skeptical with mainstream media Maybe This Time Around we have another like at the margin number of people who kind of yeah that it have this aha moment where they say okay now it dawned on me once again you
(21:32) know I could really not trust this because they were so wrong and I have to go look for Alternatives I wouldn't expect like this great change you know where all of a sudden like uh uh people would only follow this but at the margin I believe it's the same with Bitcoin it's the same with every Market driven technology people in the end who are interested in in in living life and and acting according or in in accordance or in Greater accordance with reality will will flock to these type of systems so I would assume um they they have upside you know
(22:09) in that sense but not like generally or at least I don't think I don't see that happening any time soon yeah I had uh James parag on last week who's the founder of Bitcoin prediction. Market which is trying to build a poly or is building a poly Market Lake marketplace on top of Bitcoin using the lightning Network and that was part of the discussion the philosophical discussion that we got into like with these prediction markets existing does it introduce the potential to actually change an outcome if you basically say
(22:47) this event's going to happen 6 months from now you start betting on it and as you get closer the odds um sort of become clearer and if you don't want that event to happen let's say it's a bad event like could looking at the prediction Market seeing that's a high probability event that may come to be in the future and knowing that it's a high probability you act to to reduce the probability so that a bad outcome doesn't materialize yeah I mean it's probably an interesting thought experience I haven't thought about this in in in Greater
(23:21) detail because like at the top or off the top of my head I would kind of assume yeah you may be able to to manipulate Market in your favor like especially if if there's not a lot of liquidity you know and and you have like Deep Pockets but in the end you kind of have to believe that you can beat the market you know because uh yeah and and and also kind of have to be willing uh to put money on the line that you can lose because again you can try to manipul manipulate things lower but if then the market um just
(23:54) doesn't uh buy it off you you know or or has another you uh entirely then then then you will lose out you know and that's probably just with markets in general you know because the same discussion is going on with companies and some people say Okay can like large holders manipulate the price indefinitely we have the same discussions with bigcoin or used to have them maybe not that much anymore and I always think yeah it's a free market and people can certainly try but uh it's probably going to be to their own
(24:25) detriment uh if if the market doesn't think that they're right uh and and and thinks otherwise then they're they're in for a lot of uh money yeah that's that's what I would think at least yeah sup freaks this rip of tftc was brought to you by our good friends at bit key bit key makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose it is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a two3 multisig you have one key on the hardware wallet one key on your mobile device and block stores a key in the cloud for you this is an incredible Hardware device your
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(26:25) off exchanges using coin kite Hardware MK4 cold card Q go to Coen kite.com use the code tftc we have a code now tftc for 5% off at checkout I mean now the event the outcome of the event is clear Donald Trump is President he has been very uh favorable towards Bitcoin uh during his campaign many people are convinced and I think rightly so that there will be um Bitcoin will be maybe not front and center will be a part of his overall strategy as he uh enters the White House again and so with all that in mind as it stands today I
(27:07) believe we're currently at an all-time high above 76,000 Bitcoin is a $1.5 trillion market cap asset uh at the moment as somebody who's been deep into Bitcoin for many years now like how would you define where Bitcoin stands today and where where it's going to go in the short to medium term yeah good question I mean yeah it it's certainly something you would have never believed uh or I would not have believed to be happening that soon you know I mean obviously you were always contemplating that the big players were
(27:42) coming you know that in the end Bitcoin is for everyone Bitcoin is for en enemies and that way it's also for institutions and and like big Tech billionaires and in the end even governments you know and so um you were always uh probably thinking this back in your mind or at at least I was you know and Back in the Day in 2018 when I wrote my book I was also kind of contemplating this uh Theory like many others you know of of kind of yeah when when the first central banks kind of buy Bitcoin you know as sort of a hedge and stuff and
(28:14) and and I never really thought of that it could actually be governments you know um thinking about something like uh uh building up a uh strategic Bitcoin research or something but I mean now here we are and these things have become a lot more probable I think a lot of people are still kind of skeptical that something like this in the US could happen and and so I think uh not enough of this is is priced in yet because like it still feels so surreal you know like why why would the US government uh do this uh with something which is only
(28:49) like 16 years old Isn't that too much of a a risk reputation risk still even if you are a hardcore Bitcoin believer it's yeah it's kind of like 16 years that's nothing you know and and and uh we're already talking uh these big Dimensions you know but at at the same time I think uh it's it's the modern world you know the modern world is like moving uh exponentially ever ever faster ever more exponential you know and and it's so hard for us to kind of things that move exponential to kind of than them you know because there's this important or
(29:25) there like a lot of example that are trying this you know we can think linearly like in a in a linear way as as human beings and as you as soon as something get gets exponential uh our minds are not uh wired to think that way you know and that's certainly something that we have learned like when you go back in history you know ever since the the world entered modernity you know maybe sometimes during the uh Industrial Revolution you know when when Banking and also Central Banking kind of was probably uh uh having its it its Advent you know
(30:01) then the world actually moved in this modern uh type of environment where where things have just accelerated ever since and and that's why if I think think about it in that respect I'm kind of again okay maybe 16 years it's it's nothing you know and and it's actually yeah because things are are moving that fast but we'll see I mean uh we don't know yet if something like this is going to happen as I said the the the the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve which would be huge but it's just a possibility that has become a lot more probable now with
(30:33) a trump presidency I would say and you mentioned there's naysayers bitcoin's only 16 years old why would a government do this but let's put forth the argument like why would you argue that the US government should build a strategic Bitcoin Reserve well that's a that's a great question I'm actually contemplating this uh uh myself you know because I'm always trying to play Devil's Advocate as well and kind of like think okay why should they be doing this I mean the pro arguments I see is probably yeah because um maybe not or at least how I approach
(31:13) this as of now to kind of make sense is maybe not so much from a government perspective but Mere from a government perspective as Government being um somebody who has to work uh in service of their of their constituents or like their their citizens you know and in that way it kind of makes sense to me you know if you are a US US government and you know that um you have a lot of people within uh your your your National borders that are holders of Bitcoin and and they will disproportionately benefit if you adopt uh Bitcoin uh as a
(31:50) strategic Bitcoin Reserve then obviously you also have to kind of have a a positive regulatory environment you kind of have to uh make sure uh everything is is is well kept so to say you know and and then it kind of makes sense for me you know because then you're you're you're doing this on behalf of your citizens and strengthening them you know sort of like yeah you have the US uh treasuries which are the ultimate safe haven for institutions and maybe as we always hear Bitcoin is really the ultimate uh um um
(32:22) safe asset for for people and increasingly also for institutions uh that that's that's what we're seeing as well but that's that's something how I try to approach this and then also maybe just economically speaking you know you could think that I mean the US government uh we keep on hearing this that they have this exorbitant privilege you know where they kind of uh really benefit from having the world's Reserve currency and it's obviously it is probably a big a big benefit but it's also to the detriment of of large um
(32:54) parts of society you know because uh we have this so-called triffin dilemma that you probably have heard of you know where uh the US really struggles with uh yeah having to export US Dollars and then having to keep this trade deficit you know um with other countries and this kind of just has led to the fact that the US has de industrialized and and just kind of you hollowed out uh this it's middle class and stuff you know and so that's really because of this problem you know because the US has this World Reserve currency and if you
(33:30) kind of think about it now that we have Bitcoin and you have maybe uh a government a bit strategic Bitcoin Reserve endorsed by the US government then this kind of gives Bitcoin further credibility for other governments to also move in and then at the margin you can also funnel dollar liquidity and other liquidity you know into into this Bitcoin vehicle and thereby probably kind of counteracting this this this driffin dilemma you know know so that's that's another other thought that I've been having I I still have to think
(34:02) about this is more detail but this is something I think where where it makes sense at least uh from from that perspective I would say yeah and especially when you factor in Trump's tax policy which includes a her heavy tariff regime which is a direct attack on the consequences of trin's dilemma which is you print you the world Reserve currency you have the flood International markets with it and you do that by buying their cheap labor and and at the detriment of the manufacturing base at home and that seems like that is
(34:39) one of Trump's core policies is we're going to raise tariffs to try and reinvigorate the manufacturing base here domestically in the United States and that's almost like a recognition like we need to get away from trin's dilemma and so you would probably I would think need something like a strategic Bitcoin Reserve to counteract the forces that that will be introduced to the market with the tariffs M yeah yeah I I would assume as well I mean I I would have to think about this in more detail but but sure I mean in the end
(35:14) this is yeah this would be sort of a counter acting factor I mean that's just the thought that I'm having a lot of people are arguing that it's also net beneficial because like uh US Government debt situation you know and if you kind of uh uh trying to reinforce the US dollar by having some sort of Bitcoin backing you know then in times of stress it might help and I'm not sure if I buy this argument just yet you know because like yeah the US government it probably has some facilities you know um I think it has this economic stability fund as well
(35:51) where it can kind of um mandate the treasury to to kind of calm markets if if things get rough you know and uh then again it can probably nominally at least indefinitely buy its debt you know and and there I'm I'm not quite sure if if this is really something uh at least in today's environment where this would would would make any difference you know to the market if you say yeah we have now a Bitcoin backing I don't know if if if debtors around the world uh who are loaning money to the government of the United States would would feel any
(36:28) different at least that's that's kind of like my feeling maybe this could change uh further down the line you know but I don't know how you think about this but this feels kind of maybe an argument that's being made by the big coiners but I am not sure if it it really adds up this rip was also brought to you by a good friends at salt of the earth you got to be hydrating Freaks and while you're hydrating you got to be getting your electrolytes this is the best electrolytes mix that I've ever come into contact with uh Pink Himalayan salt
(36:55) with calcium magnesium potassium sodium no sugar it tastes incredible my favorite is the orange and the pink lemonade go to drink.com that's drinks.com use the code tftc when you make your purchase and you'll get 15% off I'm telling you get on it freaks you're going to love this stuff yeah I'm not sure the debt seems so insurmountable at this time that I mean I think you maybe put a dent in the total debt with a strategic Bitcoin Reserve that can only be used to pay off the debt at some point but that need need Bitcoin to monetize significantly
(37:29) for it to make a significant debt dent in the the debt I think now as we're having this conversation like the Bitcoin strategic Reserve from the point of the US government could be a strategic move to send a signal to the market that us government's given the stamp of approval to bitcoin uh obviously they'll be pulling some Supply off the market to put in that reserve and then you have the game theory the plays after that where the US is doing this should we be doing this everybody buys it and maybe the ultimate goal is
(38:03) to drive the price of Bitcoin up understanding that Americans on a per capita basis hold the most Bitcoin in the world and so they want to increase the individual wealth of American citizens to put them in a better position yeah exactly exactly that's that's probably how I think about it exactly because that's that's also the the major and biggest risk that you're running as a government you know today in today's world you know what if any other country you know let's assume from a US perspective the the Russians the
(38:33) Chinese or who the Indians or whatever else there is you know like they are at some point um acknowledging this you know and then they're encouraging its citizens to buy Bitcoin and then Bitcoin like significantly significantly appreciates and then uh you have all these non- US citizens holding a lot of wealth in in something which uh is also not part of the US Financial system then you might be worse off in the end you know from a US perspective and that's why I think um because from the game per game uh like theoretical perspective at
(39:09) some point something like this will have to play out some government will start I mean we have seen El Salvador starting with this in 2021 but there will probably or it just assumes it's it's inevitable that at some point some other government will do this you know and and and and that's why I think it's the sooner the later or the sooner the the the US starts with something like this uh which I still kind of see as somewhat in line with with where I'm coming from Europe you know Switzerland maybe um yeah more more liberal um democracy if
(39:45) we want to call it like this you know then then at the margin this is probably something I would be um uh more keen uh to see you know and and that's why I think it would be would be a great move uh by the us to do something like this but really always having the individual in mind and not so much the government the government would just be as I said the one the one entity um yeah um really doing this in service of of its citizens yeah yeah and it's crazy to see it actually play out who knows if the Bitcoin act will get passed
(40:20) and the government will start buying Bitcoin putting it in the Strategic Reserve but the fact that it's even being discussed is crazy and a direct validation of the game theory that big Quinter has been talking about for 15 years which is uh at some point everybody's going to have to play the game whether it's an individual company Sovereign wealth fund Sovereign Nation and it's going to happen and it seems like it is happening and the game theory has always been such it's advantageous to be an early mover as opposed to a
(40:51) late mover and it is honestly a bit shocking to me that it the United States has the potential to be one of the early movers in this I thought we would be a laggard and it is encouraging that we're thinking seriously about this and potentially going to be an early mover in terms of Bitcoin accumulation on the nation state level yeah yeah it's interesting that you say this that you kind of have the feeling that you guys will be a lagger because I had the same feeling also again trying to think from a Mark perspective I'd assume that like smaller
(41:24) countries you know like Switzerland like maybe l Stein or other countries would would actually be faster in in doing something like this you know but then uh I mean here in Switz we could argue that we have a vibrant crypto ecosystem but then again uh for what it's worth I don't know if this is really going to to play out well and be really the winning strategy so to say you know and then other countries um yeah lonstein again you know it's it's this really small country that I would assume they they could have had the incentives and also
(41:56) maybe the knowledge to pull off something like this but they haven't you know and it's it's it's it's then probably other countries like El Salvador Bhutan or or I don't know you know who are probably now now first movs here and and and now already we see the United States uh coming in you know and uh it's it's always just interesting you know to kind of see these Dynamics playing out I mean it's similar to this whole discussion it's maybe a little bit a tangent but you know this discussion with micro strategy in coinbase you
(42:27) probably have have followed this as well you know where people are kind of pointing out it's crazy coinbase has been in the game for for so long you know and and and they it never really dawned on them to kind of put Bitcoin on their balance she you know and they were just kind of distracted with with with this whole decentralized altcoin casino and pushing this and now we've seen micro strategy that came along is only in the game for four years and is is already kind of out competing coinbase especially when it comes to its stock
(42:57) and you know we've seen this and and and and it's so so so much better and there you see sometimes the ones that you probably expect these things to to most uh uh intuitively get it and do it are not the ones that that actually do it in the end and that's what I find so interesting as well yeah I always thought the US would be lagger because of the fact we have the world Reserve currency and um an adoption of Bitcoin is almost a recognition that that uh is not going to last forever forever and I always believe that or long believe that
(43:31) the US would try to hold off acknowledging that for as long as possible so that I think that's the shocking thing to me is that the recognition has happened um before other countries and only 16 years in the Bin's life yeah I see but you you could almost argue that the US has like the biggest stake to lose and that's why they're now probably it's Dawning on them you know because they have the world Reserve C I mean it's probably the biggest uh they're running the biggest risk of of losing this you know and now that it's
(44:03) probably yeah I mean it's Bitcoin you know that's playing a huge role here and and then again probably also stable coins you know and I think these are like uh two two technologies that kind of work in in tandem you know and and kind of also reinforce each other and and and that way it could also be interesting for the US to say okay we are adopting Bitcoin you know uh sort of as this is this um more decentralized version and it's really uh this one part of our um so say identity you know which is still somewhat yeah it's liberty it's
(44:39) libertarian thinking it's decentralized something that seems to be somewhat still left in in the DNA of the US and then again you have maybe the more centralized version which is the US dollar which is also quite powerful and and there I think it's the reason you see that they are kind of trying to to um yeah go down this stable coin route as well where they say okay we want to we all want to adopt this we want to bring it on Shore we really want to uh regulate this as well because this is a way to also kind of uh up keep like kind
(45:13) of help to maintain this position of of having the world Reserve currency and so uh as I said it can also be it can almost be argued that they they have the biggest stakes and uh to lose and and they don't want this and that's why it's now Dawning on them and maybe faster than than on other countries you know and faster than like we said earlier either of us probably expected and with that in mind like how how much time has been pulled forward in terms of the time it will take for Bitcoin to monetize considerably um by
(45:52) the US government like let's just run with the assumption that the Bitcoin act gets passed and the US government starts accumulating a Bitcoin Reserve like what what does that do for the price of Bitcoin the market like how how crazy do things get if that actually happens in your mind yeah good good question I mean it's also something that I would probably have to think about in more detail because yeah I mean it it's yeah it seems to be so farfetched and then at the same time so close now but I mean the game theory would yeah would
(46:26) accelerate you know because I think uh once the US uh actually uh Implement something like this and it would become publicly known then I think a lot of the market would have to follow suit you know and and kind of have to everything would get priced in you know and and maybe you could argue uh it's even if even if the US doesn't uh uh officially announce it you know and it keeps on speculating with it all uh on the back drop of of trump now being president and having kind of sort of endorsed endorsed something like this you know then then
(47:02) from from a from an outsider perspective you're never really sure if if the us is going to pull this off or not you know and then maybe just to kind of H yourself as another country you will have to front run or at least try to front run this you know because uh what if the us at some point um announces hey we have done it and then I mean overnight we we finally get this Omega God candle that everyone is still looking for you know and and and and that could be crazy so that could also accelerate things you know because you
(47:35) don't want to be left behind so uh I think now even though I don't want to sound too bullish and stuff uh all all yeah all hats are somehow off and and we'll we'll see uh what's what's happening or what's going to happen I was just about to ask you like is hyper paniz real or is it just a meme um yeah I mean probably it is I mean to me it's always like I because I I do still work in the Fiat world you know I think that's where we originally met you know in the r i was there uh part of the bank that I'm working with obviously
(48:15) they have been in Bitcoin for quite some time and I'm trying to uh also uh further the Bitcoin standard within the bank but I mean I'm saying this because I think the Fiat is not going away anytime soon that's at least my belief you know I could imagine a world of Fiat staying around you know and just like uh devaluate devaluing ever more you know and and uh because like it's going to be the based in real terms and maybe nominally it stays around you know and and people uh like maybe at the margin some figure it out but a lot of people
(48:50) still won't figure it out you know and and so I do believe that hyper poniz yeah it's already happening it's maybe not happening the way like these true OG bitcoiners thought that at some time at some point in time Bitcoin is the only currency left and has devoured everything else I would rather assume that Bitcoin um is is monetizing as well quite hard but at the same time it's the US dollar through stable coin which is kind of devouring almost every other uh fiat currency on the world you know and then it's really this two uh this two uh
(49:27) uh spiked um I would say spear you know you have one side you have Bitcoin on the other side you have the US dollar and maybe just a few other Fiat which are still standing but so if you ask me I think hyper poniz is happening at the same time Fiat is is going to stick around at least nominally so uh yeah I think it it could just go on for for quite some time and we that live in a sort of Bitcoin world we see a lot of our um surroundings improve and everything else and maybe for the other people who are not sticking around for
(50:05) them things might get worse in the end you know yeah yeah I think the price increase can certainly I mean if the US government gets in starts acquiring a strategic Reserve with this whole intent of paying off debt in the future which means you're going to pull Supply off and keep it off the market for quite some time um and then what I'm just seeing on the 1031 side and sorry uh listeners I know I've used this example many times in the last couple weeks but it's top of mind because I I do think it's going to be a major
(50:42) Catalyst for pulling uh large swads of Supply off the market for longer periods of time is Bitcoin being recognized as a super collateral that can be imbued in structured credit products longer duration structur credit products where that's mortgages commercial real estate even auto loans and you sort of dual collateralize the let's just use real estate real estate asset with the real estate and Bitcoin hold it within the loan structure um and essentially hedge the risk of your house being demonetized or something by having Bitcoin equity
(51:17) and the Bitcoin within the the credit structure and we've funded some companies that are going out to the market and doing this at 1031 and if you play that out and these strategies develop a track record that makes it clear that is this is a Superior Credit product both from the borrower perspective and the lenders perspective the lender gets a better rate of return the borrower gets uh more more secure and predictable Equity within the the credit product that it's going to be a no-brainer for others and you're going
(51:46) to start pulling Bitcoin into these credit products as collateral and they're going to stay in that that credit product for 10 30 years yeah yeah exactly I mean and the way you described it I mean that's something that we're also contemplating just like at the margin at the bank you know because we're at least some of us within the bank are are already thinking in these terms you know because we believe the world is moving in that direction and something like the US endorsing Bitcoin through a strategic Bitcoin Reserve would would further
(52:20) legitimize something like this you know because then it was probably already the Bitcoin ETFs you know L Larry think was was the first um genius so to say you know and and now probably uh Donald Trump and and the entire US government could be the other uh final nail in the coffin you know where people then kind of capitulate and say okay uh we're seeing yeah it's it's it's it's correct you know um um Bitcoin is here to stay and and then also if the US would move into something like Bitcoin you know with with uh like significant amount of
(52:54) capital then in the end this would also make the Bitcoin Market more liquid I would assume that the Bitcoin Market being more liquid and being bigger you know in terms of in terms of size uh it would also stabilize a little more and that again would would would still make it for a lot of people and institution again more more attractable you know or attractive so to say that they say okay now it's it has this seal of approval by almost everyone on the planet it's it's even bigger it's even more liquid you know it's even more stable so to say um
(53:30) I'm I'm happy to move in because there's still going to be a more big upside compared to other things you know uh because of the 21 million uh limit do nobody or nothing else has and then as you described it would be implemented into different types of loan structures the credit structures and and and just uh the the the hyper poniz and AD option would keep go keep going on yeah yeah and what are I mean obviously the bank that you work for has been on top of this you've been um dealing with Bitcoin for the better part of a decade now at
(54:05) at the bank that you're at on behalf of your clients helping them get access to it what what are you seeing in the broader banking industry as it pertains to how Bitcoin is being viewed yeah I mean uh I can mostly speak for Switzerland you know which has been quite uh at the Forefront of it all you know I mean we've uh had this uh yeah I would say bills that were uh introduced in 2021 already you know where we kind of made it um very easy and also pretty favorable In from from the perspective of a client to to custody Bitcoin with banks you
(54:47) know I think this is something which is still not possible in the US it might change now as Trump is moving into office you know that like uh normal Banks can officially custody Bitcoin and keep can keep it off balance sheet for the clients you know so in the terms of a in a bankruptcy or something it's all safe and and the Bitcoin can be delivered right to to a a customer's wallet you know and and that's something I believe only like the true big Banks can do nowadays in the US because they got some exemption or something you know
(55:18) from from some folks uh um and in Switzerland we can already do this you know and that kind of helped accelerate the entire entire industry obviously there are still a lot of crypto things going on with the bank you know uh most of the banks are are offering like uh uh just uh brokerage you know and then also trading and and and kind of cting of these assets and and I think the next area is going to be uh products that actually are built on on products that make sense and there I would assume most banks will will will move uh into
(55:59) products which are based on bitcoin because on other cryptocurrencies I mean they might have been good for trading you know and and for speculating and and and put them in some sort of portfolio even there it's Dawning on more and more people that most of the cryptos are not uh keeping up with Bitcoin and so over multiple Cycles it doesn't make sense to keep them in any long-term or long uh term focused or oriented portfolio but then again even if when it comes or even like further you know when it comes to
(56:30) special products uh borrowing against uh your stack you know putting it in in some structure product or stuff like this uh Bitcoin is the only one which really makes sense you know because it has the legitimacy it has the track record and everything and it's also the only thing really demanded by clients you know like on on a broader scale I would argue and so um this is probably the next uh wave that we're seeing in Switzerland all already like a lot of banks are exploring solutions to work together with OG Bitcoin companies to
(57:03) offer these kind of things we're looking at this as well um yeah as a small country we can move a little um um or faster but now when the US actually now is moving into Bitcoin real big time with with banks and everything I mean this is going to be quite some competition and then I think Switzerland would have to move even faster but uh to keep its Edge Edge you know but that's at least what what I can say out of Switzerland if things are moving along and and and Bitcoin is getting ever more integrated into the system for
(57:39) sure yeah you're getting me more bullish it feels like we're approaching the suddenly moment that's I want to say I've been hedging my but I've been like we think about this a lot at 1031 particularly when we're allocating into companies like timing like there's many ideas out there in the world of Bitcoin in terms of products that could be brought to Market that are enabled today the question is is the timing right for this product um like obscure lightning Network use cases that make a lot of sense and actually work but however the
(58:13) market just simply isn't there that yet from an adoption perspective or understanding of the tech stack and how you should interact with these products and to date I mean I think the killer apps and Bitcoin are the companies that have had the most success are things like mining hardware and then buy sell Bitcoin um is still the killer app you get onboard people and people are mostly going to buy Bitcoin and so giving them the Avenues to to do that is is a killer product and uh beyond that I mean we've seen it with unchain you mentioned it we
(58:44) were at the Baltic Honeybadger conference hosted by hoddle hoddle and deify those are great examples of companies that found product Market fit using Bitcoin as collateral to um to receive US dollar loans uh I think that market is really mature and I think building on that Bitcoin collateralized US dollar loan or Euro loan whatever it may be product and making it I don't want to say more exotic but pushing it further into the world of credit with these structure products seems like this cycle could be good timing for something like that MH
(59:21) MH yeah I mean the suddenly phase you know that you just mentioned this is really something that I'm contemplating you know are we at this point already and and then what does it mean you know is it going to be suddenly and now like indefinitely Or or like uh like some people are speaking of this sort of super cycle you know with Bitcoin because and and I'm really trying to wrap my head around you know is something like this going to be possible you know and something inside of me obviously tells me okay or or or says
(59:52) well I mean if the US should be uh kind of um yeah endorsing Bitcoin big time you know uh also regulatory wise and everything through a Bitcoin strategic reserve and all these different types of things then then something like this could be possible you know and then also because yeah the legit legitimacy is here you know and the infrastructure is here and people can actually use these products but then again maybe the more beish person inside of me is kind of like yeah but is it really that easy you know what if uh the big coin Market kind
(1:00:27) of slows down again we have some sort of maybe not prolong prolonged bare Market but maybe again some smaller like bare Market you know where price is kind of collapsing again is is it then not the case that some people are going to lose interest again and then these products you know Bitcoin based uh Bitcoin bed um Structured Products maybe maybe there not going to be that much demand for it I'm not sure because at the same time Bitcoin might already be at a way higher price the next time it already like consolidates
(1:01:07) and and it's coming down again which also means we have probably a bigger amount or a bigger number of people who still uh even if it comes down is storing a greater amount of wealth in Bitcoin and they don't care and they are the ones that are then going to demand these products you know and and and so it's still going to be like a some sort of secular uh upwards Trend so this is all the questions that I'm contemplating and I'm not sure myself I don't know how you approach this but uh yeah we we'll see I have uh I have super cycle PTSD
(1:01:45) because that was the big meme that led to uh the uh [ __ ] show that was FTX Celsius blockfi all that you had SU zo the three arrows guys going out their super cycle whenever going back down so I'm uh have natural apprehension to throw my weight behind the super cycle meme but with all the factors we've been discussing throughout this conversation there is a reality which I can see materializing where we do not have the typical fouryear cycles that we've had historically up to this point like we've talked about this whether you call it
(1:02:25) hyper biz or the Tipping Point that's one thing I'm grappling with doing the internal calculus cuz you have many factors maturity of the industry the on-ramps custody products around um the financialization of Bitcoin then you have the fact it's been around 16 years like is Bitcoin a big enough brand name does it have enough brand recognition is it Lindy enough where people are like oh yeah like you hear hear about marketing all the time it takes x amount of touch points for somebody to actually convert into a user of a
(1:03:02) product like has Bitcoin been around enough that enough people have received enough touch points with Bitcoin that they will convert to users um obviously what I'm doing here with this podcast you have a show you're educating your clients and the people you work with at the bank like has the information uh been distilled uh to a point where it's very easy for people to grock bitcoin relatively quickly and then has that distilled information been distributed among enough people and are we approaching that social Tipping Point
(1:03:36) where the brand awareness and the understanding of Bitcoin is such where um people feel more confident holding it and then obviously you have these demand factors which have a a profound effect on Supply where you have all these potential demand drivers pulling Supply out the market for a considerable amount of time which would uh increase the the of any subsequent cycle moving forward those are the things I'm thinking about and if combination of those those things is perfect you can Envision a scenario which we do not have these rapid uh
(1:04:10) run-ups and 80% crashes yeah yeah I mean if we are if we really are at this suddenly uh Tipping Point I think we can only say in Insight you know because that's always always only possible like with more more data so to say but I I have a feeling as you said you know you laid out all these reasons I have a feeling myself that we could be at this Tipping Point because like um something that comes to mind is when I talk to my friends you know and and and they have I've already talked to them uh about Bitcoin in 2017 and 2018 and then again
(1:04:46) in 2021 you know but they were still kind of not understanding what Bitcoin really is they they really saw it as some sort of speculative vehicle you know that it was going up and going down and they they maybe held it um themselves and and then kind of sold it again but nowadays at least okay it's anecdotally and it's really my friends and obviously they have been following me and that's why it's it's been Dawning on them you know but they kind of are yeah now I get it you know it's this Supply which is ultimately scarce you
(1:05:17) know and one thing that I feel has also done a tremendous job of educating people and I feel like it's has only been around this cycle is this is this story of storing your your your your time and energy in something which is uh like absolutely scarce you know I feel like in 2021 or 2020 or or even before we haven't talked about it in these simple terms you know it's probably props to you guys jack MERS other people breed love you know who have really fostered this idea of hey you you you go out to work you earn your money you know
(1:05:55) and you have been storing it in something which can be deluded you know uh which uh and even if it's if it's not Fiat itself you know real estate everything else everything else has sort of a a tendency to to be to be like that more units are being created and with Bitcoin this just doesn't work you know and this is such an easy story I think people now get this you know because they have heard this already and then combining it with this you know okay I see I really get this I want to store something like this uh for the long term
(1:06:30) uh my energy then always if if Bitcoin kind of comes down and I've seen it in in the last six uh months where it was kind of Cho you know where a lot of people approached me and they were like okay if it's now going down to 50 I will buy for sure and I don't know if they had that's I mean they can only they can always tell me you know and it's it's actions that speak louder than words but I feel like just that these people have been arguing like this kind of shows me there might be or we might be close to this Tipping Point but yeah then again
(1:07:02) it's just anecdotally and we'll only know in h side yeah and it's so multivariate too because what we just described are factors that are sort of internal to bitcoin then you have these external factors which the debt situation you look at the yield curve the long end of the yield curve here in the United States it's it's pumping um which would signal that the people either think there's going to be insane amounts of inflation or insane amounts of growth in the US that can stomach that inflation um and obviously here in
(1:07:33) the United States and I think everybody many people um are feeling this globally they they intuitively understand what inflation is now because they've seen it hit their hit their pockets over the last three years specifically and so you have that external factor of either runaway sovereign debt situation or Price inflation that is materially affecting the quality of life individuals around the world and that's another forcing function where you have this problem and you finally recognize the problem it was a slow burn for many
(1:08:05) decades but now it's a faster burn you're like what is going on you can only understand a solution once you identify the problem and I think externally people are identifying this problem too this all long way way very multivariant but I could we're we're trying to back into Super Cycle here like this is how I would back into super cycle is describing these multivar at variables and and they sort of seem to be cesing at a perfect time yeah yeah for sure and that's the other thing I think whether it's a Sovereign Nation
(1:08:37) these credit products micro strategy that's another new Factor within the market of Bitcoin that I don't think people really appreciate is that these are demand drivers that are pulling Supply off for longer durations it's not speculative Traders trying to to increase their their Fiat wealth like these are people using Bitcoin as collateral for long periods of time which is just a completely different Dynamic um in the market as well yeah exactly yeah I haven't thought about this but that's that's true I mean
(1:09:10) it used to be really like the Traders you know you were holding Bitcoin going in and out yeah like uh on exchanges but nowadays the more we get these play players like micro strategies and these people with huge conviction that I think yeah you will yeah exactly you will have ever more like of this liquid Supply moving off the markets you know and and just being stowed away and uh it needs significantly higher prices to be to be kind of put back onto the markets and then maybe some of them are even like yeah I I don't have any attention to
(1:09:46) sell because that's always what I'm asking myself you know what would I be selling it for yeah just again Fiat but then what will I do with this amount of Fiat you you know and and maybe only if you have really something in mind that you want to kind of um do and and and yeah then then you have a reason to sell but uh if if not this is really a question that uh I'm I have been grappling with for quite some time you know and and as he said The more we have these people yeah the the the bigger the pressure will be or the less I mean
(1:10:20) amount of or Supply that will be on the markets available yeah that that's for sure yeah I made a somewhat tongue and cheek and it was prefaced as tongue and cheek because it does sound too crazy like I my uh my price target for this bull run like I could see us going as high as like into like the mid like past a million dollars go up to like 1.5 1.
(1:10:46) 8 million if things get really crazy what like considering everything we've been discussing do you have any price targets or idea do you ever give price targets or ideas around where it could go yeah well I mean not not spe not specifically as well I mean um obviously at the bank we have been trained to kind of not not do this and and I I did it once you know in a Swiss newspaper and then like the next day the bank CEO was knocking at my door and like hey dude maybe we have to kind of be more cautious because like we as
(1:11:26) as as having customers fiduciaries you know they they could be coming back to us and and and kind of telling us that what did you say here but I mean generally yeah for me it I don't know it could be going anywhere you know because as I said the um the chips are off the table now uh with with with Trump having moved in and I feel like um the next Target will probably be gold itself you know which would be around I don't know 500 600 uh dollar $600,000 per Bitcoin and then and then yeah uh in the end uh it's probably
(1:12:07) the treasury market that we're eyeing and then uh we will have a lot more upside as well so um I think uh not sure about this cycle but uh I I'll take it as it comes so to say yeah no like you said we'll only ever know in hindsight and that's the other factor that plays into my super cycle analysis if we're backing into it I'm not saying it's happening the $1.
(1:12:33) 8 million prediction was tongue and cheek would not be surprised but tongue and cheek probably not going to happen but like you said we'll only know in hindsight and backing into the Super Cycle Theory how it would materialize like you have Market participants who have been in Bitcoin for a while get conditioned to expect these fouryear cycles and then the suddenly moment happens and the fouryear Cycles just aren't there anymore and so you're sort of taught over time it's my third or fourth cycle now um to expect these four-year waves
(1:13:06) of um an influx of users and the price running up and a crash and re Rin repeat but someday if Bitcoin does what we think can do that's simply not going to happen anymore M yeah for sure yeah interesting times interesting time for sure yeah I mean yeah again and that's what I find so interesting about Bitcoin like intuitively obviously price is something I'm interested in and then I I used to be one of these guys who's always saying well let's not talk about price you know because it's not important and it kind of dawned on me
(1:13:44) just in in recent uh months as well that yeah bitcoin price is important you know Bitcoin is about number go up because eventually this is really what it's been designed for as well you know because it it is this 21 million limit you know and then uh it's probably yeah it's it's good that we acknowledge this or at least that's how I think about it you know that uh it is pure money and and that way it's it's really made to absorb all of this Fiat uh flood which is out there and then obviously price is a big driver and something that people should
(1:14:16) be caring about not saying that there's other things which are also very interesting like Tech te technologically you know that there are a lot of advancements then obviously the the whole entire uh philosophical societal um um Wrangle that comes with it you know and which then again but for me kind of also hinges on price you know a lot of things that I've been contemplating I've also been reading or or uh writing I would say on a book you know and we have this one chapter where we kind of also um think about how
(1:14:52) Bitcoin um will will change the iety and and it always came down back to price you know if price keeps on appreciating a lot more people will think about it uh and and a lot more things will make sense a lot more products will make sense you know also Michael strategy if or Michael sailor if he's honest a lot of his assumptions are really built upon the assumption that the price is rising and I think it's just fine you know but uh so this is something which is interesting kind of um you know factoring this in at some point or in
(1:15:29) some parts the price is really important in some part it's also more than the price it's this dual thing you know where I never really sure some days some some days I feel like yeah the price is more important and I feel so excited about it some days I feel like it's not important because the other aspects are way more important and it's really this mixture of of both that kind of make it so interesting so uh yeah that's kind of how how I also think about out price not about like what quantitative targets but
(1:15:59) more uh the importance of price and and just uh how it interacts with with all the things we're we're projecting into Bitcoin as well yeah and it it it does effectuate this the self-fulfilling prophecy where bitcoiners have a view of the future and where they would like to take the world um by leveraging their Bitcoin not leveraging up but like using Bitcoin to make the world a better place and I think what we started the conversation on is a perfect example example that the presidential election in the US and the fact that the idea of
(1:16:30) a Bitcoin strategic Reserve is even on the table I would argue and I think many others would argue is a product of the fact that bitcoin's price got to a certain point where individual bitcoiners had enough wealth to donate to particular politicians and get in the room to paint the picture of Bitcoin and help with policy where like you may not care about political power obviously the the libertarian many in the libertarian Circle not all will say that oh it's not worth playing the game don't vote like just change it be a markets but you may
(1:17:02) not care about political power political power cares about you and I think this election is the first in which Bitcoin or some of us at least recognize that and use Bitcoin to get in the room to get Bitcoin policy on and again the self filling prophecy is as you do that and you get the go you convince the government to buy Bitcoin the price is going to go up even more and and you have this number go up enables you to build the future that you that you want um by using exactly yeah no that's that's true I mean for me it was always
(1:17:38) I was always I was also growing up as a true libertarian you know and then at some point I was a classical philosophical Anarchist you know really uh disguised or um not not liking government you know that much and really uh discust that's what what I wanted to say you know uh about government and what's happening but then as you grow older um I mean yeah the your perspective kind of changes but nowadays what's so great I mean I still get to be some some sort of of libertarian you know which is really also anchored in in
(1:18:14) as we discussed in the beginning you know Market driven Tendencies and developments like Bitcoin like prediction markets like all of these types of things you know but at the same time you have this this tool now that you can wield and and try to make government better um maybe at the margins you know because I was always uh like um if if if you are this philosophical Anarchist in the end if I look back uh my real uh World impact was probably quite um diminished and quite uh small you know and then I always had
(1:18:52) the argument yeah if if you if if none of of us is like a philosophical Anarchist you know then the mind uh of people never changes and and and then we're all always things are going to stay the same but I kind of backed away from this Theory because I think yeah it is important that we act in the real world and and and and make uh changes at the margins probably and and now we just get to do it with Bitcoin you know and that's what gives me so much hope you know if I if Bitcoin weren't around and and and I would have to dabble in
(1:19:23) politics and try to change change things I mean I would be a less a lot less uh like enthusiastic you know if it if it weren't for Bitcoin but nowadays there's like this interesting mixture you know where as you said there's Bitcoin the tool it can help you you can kind of Leverage it to kind of change the system and and now we're seeing it playing it or we're seeing it play out in real time probably with this election that just happened yesterday so uh that's that's certainly again something which I find quite interesting
(1:19:55) yeah we're going to win Pasco we're going to win this was fun any uh any final thoughts you think we should Le the freaks with before we wrap up here well uh no I think uh all has been said thanks a lot for having me and uh we'll see I think uh the next few days are going to be interesting I hope that we're going to have a uh free Ross announcement soon by the Trump campaign this would be another great example you know of of how we could actually change the world at the margin you know because like uh it would
(1:20:30) just be amazing to kind of Pardon somebody like him bring him out of government of of prison you know and then also donate a whole bunch of Bitcoin to him that he will never have to work again and so then it would just be like us in conjunction with these people at government making somebody's life again a lot better and then I would say this is already has already been worth it uh this this whole thing that we're doing here so uh yeah it it would would be great to hear something like this in the next few days weeks so I
(1:21:04) have my fingers crossed that we're not going to get disappointed here yeah it's going to be fun it's already fun this is going to be an incredible year for for bck winners everywhere for the industry seems like for the United States too and hopefully for Ross Alber um free Ross there exactly peace and love freaks
