podcasts
This podcast highlights Bitcoin's rise from a niche asset to a global financial cornerstone, addressing systemic fiat issues and driving institutional adoption.
This episode of TFTC dives into Bitcoin's transformative role in the global financial system, framing it as the “biggest asymmetrical bet of all time” due to its potential to address systemic issues like currency debasement and economic instability. The guest, a former derivatives trader, highlighted Bitcoin’s unmatched risk-reward profile and its alignment with managing financial risks, particularly as fiat systems falter. The discussion also explored Bitcoin’s maturing ecosystem, with new financial products like collateralized loans reducing sell pressure and supporting long-term adoption. Additionally, the societal impacts of flawed fiat policies—such as rising living costs and declining quality of life—were linked to Bitcoin’s promise as a transparent, fixed-supply alternative that fosters financial freedom. With growing legitimacy through institutional investments and nation-state adoption, including the proposed Strategic Bitcoin Reserve in the U.S., Bitcoin is positioned as a pivotal force in reshaping the global economy.
This episode underscores Bitcoin’s transformative potential as both a financial tool and a solution to systemic flaws in fiat currencies. By combining personal experiences, technical insights, and economic analysis, it highlights Bitcoin’s evolution from a niche asset to a cornerstone of global financial infrastructure. Institutional adoption, policy shifts, and accessible Bitcoin-based financial products signal a future where Bitcoin reshapes the global economy, offering profound implications for individuals, institutions, and nation-states.
0:00 - Intro
0:40 - Joe's background
9:57 - Borrowing on bitcoin stabilizes the market
13:06 - Unchained
14:53 - Educating on the problem with money
19:01 - The origin of Joe's story
24:04 - Zaprite & SOTE
25:37 - The power of storytelling
32:38 - Outlining the Fiatello story
51:49 - Response to the presentation
58:43 - Preparing for 2025
(00:00) and Bitcoin just blows everything else out the water it is just the biggest asymmetrical bet of all time I go to bed at night worrying I don't have enough most people don't even recognize that there's a problem in the first place which is insane to thing people know something's wrong because they can feel it they can feel that things are not moving in the right direction they all share one root cause and that's the quality of the money in countries in the west we do suffer from these problems but the extent to which we suffer from
(00:31) them pales in comparison to those around the rest of the world all right take to Joe I'm sorry as I was describing my uh my poor setup here some audio went on in the background of my mic I didn't know if it was picking that up but uh like I said we we met this morning uh or got connected this morning you're now meeting face to face uh you just released a 38 minute video to try to break Bitcoin down from first principles for beginners what's the problem uh and I think the problem that you're trying to solve in terms of a
(01:10) OneTouch piece of content or education that would help people fall down the Bitcoin rabbit hole and be compelled to learn more is really enticing um but before we drive into what's the problem the story of Satoshi versus Fiat and and what happens on this island that the civilization gets sted Ed on why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself your background and how you came to become passionate about this particular problem of educating people about Bitcoin uh sure sure um right well I guess start start at the
(01:48) beginning but Mar I'm the danger of turning into a monologue so just interject and and and tell me and stare me a little bit here um my um based in the UK um grew up in Yorkshire around the north um of England I uh physics University um and then went on to uh join become an ex derivatives Trader um initially at Goldman Sachs and then spent 10 years in the city um but Morgan Stanley and UBS for the for the last few years and subsequently went on to um found a the sports uh Sports modeling Quant engineering business um which was
(02:36) producing modeling uh football so soccer for you guys from an algorithmic perspective um producing automated models and pricing systems um applying those to to book makers and then we're ultimately acquired by our our biggest customer um that was in 201819 and then spent the last five six years growing helping to grow that business from a sort of national champion to a to a global player um and on the way found Bitcoin in 20 2020 you know very similar time to a lot of other people um and then had the opportunity to take a step out of that
(03:17) business earlier well last year now we're in 2025 now um and so yeah now I'm focused entirely on thinking about how to further the the adoption of Bitcoin in a variety of ways and so that's super high level and you're happy to dig into any any any part that you well let's dig into it I mean just broadly speaking based off of the resume you just listed there it seems like you've been in the business of managing risk for for quite some time and I think that's how many bitcoiners view Bitcoin as a way to manage the risk
(04:01) of of currency debasement so was it the the risk aspect of risk adjusted potential of Bitcoin that Drew you to it or was it understanding problems in the world of risk that you were involved in and and how systemic the risk may be that that Drew you to it yeah I think I think you you've honed in on it there like my entire career has been managing risk in very in various different forms um and even from a sort of personal perspective and interest perspective that has always been where I was drawn to I I always wanted to be a
(04:37) bookie growing up you know I used to work in the Ben shops in new yorshire and things like that so you know it was always around you know having a good sense of risk versus reward um and you know that carried through my uh my journey from University to to work because you know I was interested in in derivatives because it was never it's not about gambling you know when people think about taking risk and things it's not about gambling gambling is never doesn't interest me you know I like watching sports you know but I'd rather not have
(05:20) money on the sport you know have a little b or something like that but it's purely just for interest interest sake the the risk reward comes from you know you want to sharpen your skills and be able to take the right risks at the right time and appropriately size what it is you're risking based on your confidence of the of the outcome um and Bitcoin just blows everything else out the water I mean there is it is just the the biggest asymmetrical bet of all time and you know in [Music] 2020 I came you know I i' everyone's got
(06:02) these touch points about Bitcoin and you know from somebody told me about it and whenever um and there have been various points but I was inside the system and you know when you're much like the the CIS article that he wrote about the why the europees don't get Europe leag don't get yeah when you're inside the system you just it's beyond your sort of mental model to think that something exists outside that you're that you're not aware of because you've been taught and everybody you interact with operates in this system and this is just how the
(06:41) world Works um and even finding Bitcoin in 2020 it was found from that perspective you know much like you know the rest of the world I was stuck at home listening to podcasts things and at that time uh I was actually listening to a lot of real vision um and this was in a previous incarnation of real Vision before you know um and you know r p was going through that similar sort of Discovery uh around Bitcoin obviously he' come across it earlier but was really sort of digging in asking those questions at that time and I was sort of
(07:20) I felt like we were going through it at a similar page similar stage but even then it was from a trade perspective it's like you know you've got fixed Supply you've got this demand and it was you know almost mechanical but then when you get into it you realize yeah that's like that's part of the story but that's that's like missing missing the biggest almost like the biggest piece and so you end up coming into Bitcoin through that risk reward high level view but then when you dig into you realize it just changes
(08:01) everything and so not only is it the same not only is it have the risk reward you thought but it's even better it's even better because what the financial markets don't understand is that once you've walked through that door you're never going back ever and so it's unlike any other asset that's ever existed and so you know sort of I'm r I'm want it here but but it's like you know when people and it's touches on micro strategy and things like this as well when the price goes up the financial markets think people are going
(08:40) to sell it's just that's just not how it works that's not how it works with Bitcoin you know I I've I've gone through that inflection point and I'm sure you have as well where like I go to bed at night worrying I don't have enough not that I have too much right and getting annoyed when the price goes up and smiling when it dips 10% you know it's it it's you reach that sort of point and and you know that you're not the only one right there is an increasing number of these people all around the world and when you overlay that mentality and that
(09:18) level of um conviction on top of that risk reward from a mechanical perspective for Bitcoin is that all bet all bets are off it's not a question of when it's a question not a question of if it's a question of when um and so yeah it's a very long way of answer of answering answering your question but it's um yeah I think my my whole career has led me to landing on bitcoin is just the greatest asymmetrical trade of all time um and now there's just nothing else worth working on yeah no I mean that's incredible context the background how you came to
(10:01) bitcoin as you're explaining it and walking through it I couldn't help think of a couple of things number one is would like to get your perspective on how risk broadly in traditional markets Global markets is mispriced right now because of money uh and particularly how central banks and governments can manipulate it and then number two to your last point about um hodlers not wanting to sell I think now as it stands in 2025 I'm not sure if you've read uh Stone rid's annual letter from Ross Stevens this year but it's
(10:39) becoming even easier for people who do have the conviction not to sell as we get products whether it be commercial real estate credit products I think eventually uh Residential Mortgage products will come to Mark we've already seen Bitcoin collateralized lending desks now we're got um insur or lending products using insurance premiums to drive down that borrowing cost for for Bitcoin holders and now heading into 2025 heading into Bitcoin 16th year of existence uh the ability for people with the conviction to not have to sell and
(11:14) just use their Bitcoin as collateral to borrow is only getting easier and I think that adds a variable to the the price volatility that has existed historically that has not uh entered the market uh the first 15 years now uh it it's much easier for hodlers to hold and apply the whole buy borrow die Playbook to to this asset which I don't I don't think many people really appreciate yet yeah absolutely and you know I'm I'm slightly I'm slightly flipping when I say like nobody's going to sell when the price goes up because of course people
(11:53) will you know the priorities are the families and things like so we still live you know in a Fiat world you know for now and so some people take some money off the table to improve their family's life pay down the mortgage and these sorts of things but you're right we're reaching that stage of mat or maturation really in the ecosystem around Bitcoin the asset which gives people much more flexibility I think to think about this as being a core piece of their long-term estate right and managing the risks around that for the the long-term good
(12:30) of their family um and so you know the the development of these new products and you know collateralized uh lending facilities things like which is which is great it's uh sort of drifting more towards the standard products that you would have in in existing financial markets when it comes to you know uh lending against private shares and things like this for example um which is which is obviously obviously great I haven't read I haven't read St his article though so apologies on on that one so freaks this rip of tftc was
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(14:54) com Mary there we go sorry about that I no had to P had had to push my laptop uh closer to the the hotel to pick up the Wi-Fi in full strength but uh I lost you when you're saying you haven't uh haven't finished the the St or read the Stone Ridge letter yet but I think the point the point stands is the um the ability for Bitcoin to be kept off the market and really crunch that Supply demand Dynamic that exist is is only increasing from here and it seems like traditional Finance people are beginning to wake up to it obviously we had the
(15:33) ETFs last year we've got the Strategic bcoin Reserve being talked about uh at the federal level here in the United States you mentioned micro strategy I think um I think it will be interesting to see how quickly the traditional Finance World wakes up to this risk adjusted opportunity that exists in Bitcoin I think that's the what's really great about what's the problem and what you're doing to try to educate people is that most people don't even recognize that there's a problem in the first place which yeah is insane to
(16:12) think especially for people in traditional Finance who are supposed to be in this world of money- making and managing risks they many don't understand what money is at the end of the day yeah ABS absolutely I yeah I would add something to that in that I think people know something's wrong because they can feel it they can feel that things are not moving in the right direction you know life is becoming more challenging but pinpointing why that is the case is very very hard especially when you are being told it's this or it's
(16:51) that or it's it's them or it's you know in the media for example um and you're you know the cause and effect is OB fiscated it makes it very very hard for the everyday person who doesn't have the financial background or has done the you a thousand hours of you know Austrian economics and understanding the banking system and listening to L Al all these things to to Really piece that together and um you know I think I certainly hope what's the problem helps people with that um you know it's not Mar Marty it was a accidental
(17:36) creation um in all honesty I did you know I don't see myself as I'm not prioritizing in trying to educate people um but it's something I've created and was then encouraged to do something with because it was effective um and so yeah I'm just so glad to have it out there and and the initial reception has been amazing like just some of the comments you know I'm I'm very happy being in the background I've never you know posting stuff is is quite for I'm sure I overlap a lot with a lot of your audience is it's not where I would like to be in the
(18:22) in the spotlight happy to be behind the scenes figuring stuff out um so it's been a uncomfortable sort of 24 hours putting this out there and you know um but I'm made up with the comments just some the people who watched it so far you know the thought they're going to share it with their friends and like this is the missing piece for them um it's just makes it worthwhile um so yeah yeah delighted thank you for having me on to to talk about it a welcome surprise at the end of the day well let's let's jump it what compelled you
(18:57) to to make the presentation in the first place was this something just for friends and family was it uh an exercise and first principles for yourself well it was for it was for friends um I got you know mo most of us most of us end up and you you're slightly different because um you know you put out the newsletter and so you know constantly thinking about taking what's in your head and putting on a piece of paper and communicating it to other people and as you that that process is a fairly regular one for you I I'd expect
(19:31) also preparing for your podcasts and guests and all of these different things but for most of us I suspect it's not and so you carry this jumble of sort of jumble of knowledge and conviction and insight in your head you're never really forced to get it down into some tangible form um and I was invited about three months ago by a friend um for a weekend away where he invited about 15 people from his you know his live who all shared sort of entrepreneurial um backgrounds to go and hang out together you know we'll talk about stuff we'll
(20:16) have a good time but everyone brings something to talk about so you know you can then share it with everybody else but I didn't know anybody else going I only know only knew my friend and I was like what am I what am I going to go talk about you know um you know my first thought was oh God I'm going to have to stand up in front of 15 people I don't know and talk about something you know um but I was like well the only thing I actually want to talk about is Bitcoin and so but I didn't know who else didn't know
(20:46) whether anybody else going a knew Bitcoin and then B to what extent they knew Bitcoin and so I you know had to sit down think like what am I actually going to go and talk to them about and so I end up having to strip it back strip it back and strip it back and be like well if I'm only going to talk for half an hour I should try and set a nearer term Target in half an hour can I get them to want to learn about Bitcoin because in half an hour I can only communicate so much about Bitcoin so if I do it that way then it can
(21:21) appeal to everybody regardless of whether anybody in the room has actually heard of it before and so by constraining the problem I thought about like how do I get this down like what are the key things that I actually want to communicate um and then I ended up creating this this story um which makes it with the idea of trying to make it accessible to absolutely everybody and so you know since since doing that presentation coming back you know I've done it for various different people I've done it for my mother-in-law she's in her 70s
(21:54) you know and she she gets it you know but but the it was amazing AB I was just delighted with the way it went because um yeah you just you just see people's eyes pop we have these aha moments you know as you as you go through it because I mean to give your and hopefully we can put the video in the show notes M so people can people can go ahead and watch it but I wanted it so that any body watching it as long as you're a human being with some life experience I can identify a set of issues up front that they're familiar
(22:38) with that affect them and there you know maybe one or two or there could be lots and then showing them that actually you know you're confused about where all these things come from and you think they're all separate you know so you know the cost of living obesity homelessness breakdown of the family unit you know forever Wars all of these things that they all share one root cause and that's that's the quality of the money so like locking that in up front and then taking them on a on a on a on a journey through a story where at each
(23:18) stage they're sort of thinking through the logic for themselves and and being given a mental framework around which to think about where the issues come from without mentioning Bitcoin at all and then at the very end sort of coming back to revealing that actually you know Bitcoin is the solution to all of these to the to the underlying problem and the underlying problem here is the quality of the money and that's because it can be changed and it has been changed and we can dig into you know a little bit of the aspects the
(23:53) aspects of the story there but it really it really works nicely this rip was also brought to you by our good friends at salt of the earth you got to be hydrating Freaks and while you're hydrating you got to be getting your electrolytes this is the best electrolytes mix that I've ever come into contact with uh Pink Himalayan salt with calcium magnesium potassium sodium no sugar it tastes incredible my favorite is the orange and the pink lemonade go to drink.
(24:23) com that's drinks.com use the code tftc when you make your purchase and you'll get 15% off I'm telling you get on it freaks you're going to love this stuff yeah now I think the the release of uh what's the problem is a bit serendipitous because I literally have this book that I've been reading on this trip the power of personal storytelling like spinning Tales to connect with other people and that's one thing I think bitcoiners uh historically first 15 years it's it's really you're explaining Bitcoin you're talking about historical things and um
(24:58) trying to highlight the technical details and the mechanics of the system as it works but I think humans inherently really react to stories much more uh uh passionately than somebody like myself explaining Technical and mechanical details of what Bitcoin is and that's I'm about three chapters into this book and that's something I'm trying to personally get better at is storytelling and I think again serendipitous that that you dropped this incredible story to to sort of plant the seed in people's minds well I look forward to your um your
(25:35) newsletter taking a more fairy tale um sort of bent going forward um but yeah it's it's right like if you think about the evolution of of Bitcoin and the education around Bitcoin like we started out like with the white paper and for people to grasp Bitcoin and the the implications of that is a giant leap from just reading the white paper back then and then you know over time there's been more and more layers sort of built on those foundations where it becomes more accessible to a greater number of people but is still a relatively small
(26:13) surface areas like the like the the cipher punks and then thinking about the you know the political uh aspects of it and the governance and then the financial aspects and things like this it's still relatively inaccessible for your everyday person person who doesn't have a background in any of those things especially when they're absolutely not taught any of the critical thinking around this within the existing in the existing system to even realize that there is an issue and then you know over time we've had more and more great
(26:45) literature more and more accessible literature creates on top of that you know the Bitcoin standard and then you know the price of tomorrow and broken money and all of these things it becomes more and more accessible over time and the leak that people have to make becomes smaller at each stage and you know we grow the bubble we grow the Bitcoin bubble but like there's still a big gap there's still a big gap for people especially outside of certain personality type subsets you know to to to engage or have the motivation or the
(27:22) understanding about why they should even engage why this is even relevant um and you know I you I've tried to orang P A lot of people and you have more success with some than others um you know you share books you share videos you try to talk to them about it but it's like you say we we tend to approach it from one or two certain directions and it's like how do we how do we try and make it as big as possible or as welcoming as possible to get people to the the starting line to want to to want to learn and stories a great
(27:59) way of doing that really great way of doing that um so yeah I'm but I'm not a natural Storyteller but you know thankfully you know AI is at a at a level now that I was able to create this presentation you've you've seen it there a lot the viewers won't have seen it but it's you know the content could be quite depressing perhaps because you're just basically in a world where everything just keeps getting worse um but it's wrapped in that soft cuddly Pixar Animation overlay which sort of makes it a lot more a lot more accessible and I
(28:37) think um what I've certainly found in talking to people is that it it it sets off the light bulb in a range of people that you wouldn't expect necessarily if you were talking to them about Bitcoin it's because it connects to people's lives and they they understand they see that connection and they buy into the story you know when that Penny drops there's some just you know there's one slide especially and you you have seen it which is the the flow diagram but you know fiell presses the big red button and then you know things start going
(29:18) wrong and then this and then this and then this and then this and people just really identify because they see these things like oh Jesus I never knew I never knew this is where it came from you know that um those moments and especially um women as well women as well because you know we don't have as many women in the Bitcoin Community as we should um and this is and this is something which is seems to resonate really well across you know both men and women which is which is great yeah that's one thing uh it's been
(29:56) a conversation on this trip that I'm on with a couple of other bitcoiners and brought our wives with us in the wives conversing um talking about the fact that we all have children and um the fact that money has gotten to the point where where it's hard for people to raise families and more importantly mothers to be with their children because they're forced enter the workforce and and do the 9 to5 and then many are forced to put their children in daycare or hire an expensive nny and not really spend that quality time with
(30:34) their children um in their most formative years and I think that that is one of the at least for my wife and a couple of the other wives that are here the conversations I've ever heard is is one of the things they're most excited for bitcoin's overall impact is just giving mothers that quality time with their children back yeah AB absolutely we've been we've been conditioned now as a society to be very much moving in One Direction set of expectations that you know both parents should be working and and you know there
(31:09) is every family needs to make those choices but there should be choices they shouldn't be forced but we're on the wrong side of the line right now because of the the Fiat system and you know Bitcoin solves a lot solves a lot of things um this this being one of them Monty would it be helpful for me to outline um I'm guessing because a lot of the viewers won't have seen the video yet to give a high level yeah sum of of the structure because then um you know my hope my hope for the video is for it to become a tool in the
(31:52) Arsenal of Bitcoins because there there won't be anything in the video that somebody who's been in Bitcoin for a number of years will go you know what I didn't know that but the way that it's the way that it's delivered and the structure of it I think is is unique amongst the um the Bitcoin material that we have available to us today but my hope is that yeah I would love that bitcoiners end up using this to send to people who haven't had the penny drop yet and so if they understand what's what's in there they can watch it themselves understand
(32:31) that this is actually a pretty potent thing that they can then they can then leverage um and hopefully bring more people to to want to learn about Bitcoin to then ask them for that first podcast or that first video or that first book and which is really you know where where I would love this to land yeah and I'll I'll T you up I think the way you started the video and started the story more importantly um is this idea of an advanced civilization and had already progressed and and reached a level of success and quality of life
(33:06) that has their ship crash and the the survivors are forced to rebuild civilization uh with the end goal in mind fresh in their minds of what they know they can build but they have to figure out how to go from zero to getting back to where they were yeah yeah okay great so maybe I just spend a couple of minutes just literally whizzing through the high level story arc so that people have a have an idea um well it it really starts with listing problems that people see in their lives today like a whole Myriad of
(33:41) issues and then trying to um get people to identify that you know with one or two one or two different things and then saying that this is these are really share a share a cause and that's the quality of the money uh and then say well this I'm going to take you through a story here going to elect to you about Bitcoin this is you know at this point you don't even know it's about Bitcoin you just know it's called what's the problem and there's a guy there's a Pixar guy on the front page with the big red buttons and
(34:08) that's that's all you know um and so yeah it's the story is there's a shipwreck hundreds of smart people get washed up on an island they've come from a you know Advanced civilizations so they know where they need to get back to but they're starting from zero and so the very first thing they need to figure out is like what are they going to use as money on this brand new island and you know you have to suspend your disbelief that they can create whatever monetary system they want with whatever characteristics but then the
(34:36) question is you know what makes good money and when I gave this presentation to um these guys in Portugal you know I just see his blank faces staring back at me because you know most people have never really thought about what makes good money you know but then there's you go through the seven characteristics you know that we that we all know um to sort of set the scene and then they go okay well we're not just going make good money we're going to make the perfect money and the perfect money basically describes Bitcoin right without saying
(35:05) Bitcoin and so you know you go great the create the perfect money but then there's a disagreement two leaders emerge from the iseland and one called Satoshi who's like he says well this these are the characteristics of perfect money and we all agree on that so why would you ever change them and then someone else called fiell he goes well okay well yeah I get that but what if there's an emergency like what if the people we put in charge of the money feel the need to change something I think we should have the perfect money
(35:35) but we should also have a big red button that we can press and change any aspect of the of the perfect money if we need to of course no one will ever press it of course but we'll have it there just in case and then you know satosi cannot get on board with this idea so there's a big disagreement they build massive wall down the middle of this island and on one side they creates sat Toshi and the other side they creates for yours and they're both identical to start with and it's perfect money on both sides and
(36:03) then it takes the next stage is well um there is no there is nothing so everyone's starting from scratch and everyone's living trying to figure out how to survive and then you know they're doing their own fishing they're doing their own cutting down on the wood building their own shelters but it's really inefficient nobody's really trading because everyone's living hand to mouth and these various things and then there's you know two or three minutes of taking you through the form of a free market where people begin to specialize
(36:31) because then they're better at doing some things than others and you introduce the idea of competition because lots of people on the on the ship and that when people specialize prices start to fall quality starts to increase and then there's active trading and there's perfect money and then the consequence is you know um and you also have investment Innovation which then drives further quality of life improvements but what happens to the um the money is that the money starts to increase in value the purchasing power
(37:02) of the money starts to increase so nobody has to take undue risk with their Capital they still lend it out but they don't have to they keep the money themselves they don't have to have somebody looking after the money for them but the quality of life for everybody improves because of the productivity of everybody even for the people who are not productive in the society and this happens on both sides of the island and see it's uh it's really price of Tomorrow by Jeff boo in you know a poor a poor imitation of Jeff Boo's wonderful
(37:34) book in you know one or two slides and you know from that point the societies have grown so big that they decide to elect the government and so they elect a government on both sides and it doesn't matter if it's left right big small whatever it's it's try to make this completely apolitical as far as I can um to make it appeal to as broad a base as possible and then what happens is the government come along and then they start to um tax the population do government spending in various forms and inevitably they run
(38:10) into a deficit problem and it doesn't matter where the deficit problem comes from but you have a deficit problem and then both sides of the island you know they're running in parallel effectively both sides have to make a decision about what they're going to do and satosi doesn't have any choice like he has to raise taxes or cut spending that's the only way to balance the budget because you know he can't change the money whereas fiell he has a big red button and he's up for a re-election right and so he really just
(38:40) prints some extra money for the government gets reelected SOI loses the election you know some people are made redundant the economy becomes more more efficient but prices continue to fall and and quality continues to increase but FIA tell he prints the money and he gets away with it because the population don't know and then he thinks this is thinks this is great and then the next stage is you know things start happening in the economy you know he prints the money the Bas is the currency and the basing the currency starts to distort the price
(39:15) signals in the market you know it increases the business costs business input costs we starts to lead to Consumer Price inflation in various forms it leads to the um reduction in in quality of goods because businesses are trying to cut down the quality to keep the price the same leads to shrink flation leads to increasing in prices for some decisions which reduces overall affordability for the population and undermines the health at the same time because now the food is having to be um produced with lower and lower
(39:50) ingredients creates a Health crisis you know it leads to reduced affordability combined with asset pricing inflation so the people who own the assets they they see the benefits the poor and who don't own the assets get left behind the banks start pushing greater leverage you know everyone's now taking speculative risk because assets never go down in price more leverage in the system people can't afford to buy a house because they they got less take- home money the assets are more expensive and they're already more
(40:21) leverage so now both parents have to start working there's fewer children there's greater um breakdown of the nuclear family greater levels of hopelessness and addiction you know it it tries to walk through all of these things which come as a consequence purely of the money printer like naturally walking walking through these things and at each stage it requires more and more government intervention to deal with them and so the government has to start pumping more money back into the economy to deal with these secondary issues further
(40:52) distorting the price signals and stucking the productive people away from um delivering efficiency within the economy making it even more unproductive um and then and then he realizes for teller that the only way to solve these new Halles that he's created is just to hit the pring button again I just Brint more and more money more and more money and it's just the solution over and over again so just goes round and round and round and then it becomes it leads to the next stage where he's he's no longer operating in free market
(41:25) capitalism anymore he's created crony corporatism where he's he now has a set of Industries attached to the government who are all trying to deal with these secondary issues that he's created through the money printer and he now becomes Pro protective of those Industries over the population and he starts to um embed the the relationships with these corporate entities very very close to the government so the population can't really tell where the government ends anymore and these corporates begin and it really Ms the destruction of the
(42:01) societal balance it creates the forever Wars and the pharmaceutical industry and the you know the growth of Wall Street and all of these sorts of things and then it sort of spirals out of control and you know he gets to the point where it's uh he's just having to constantly press the big red button because it's the only way it's the only way out and he's trying to he's trying to balance social um social uh cohesion really um and then so you know we end up in with a picture of you know a world that looks very much like
(42:38) today and so people go okay well I recognize that I recognize this I recognize that now I have a framework for where these things came from right without me having to without us having to say you know it's because of the fed or you know go of these things because it's done in a nice way within a story um you know obviously there's a lot of detail which is um abstracted away around like how money is created and all of these sorts of things but those are the levels of detail people will get to when they start wanting to read about
(43:11) you know the underlying mechanisms for these things but then you know sort of draw it back together because they viell is now in this world where he has all these issues and then the wall starts to crack down the middle of the island and so you know on satoshi's side he's got this free market you know uh with a money that's acing in value and the quality of life is Lifting for everybody and on the other side you've got a world that looks very much like today but the world the wall starts cracking and for the first
(43:46) time people and money can move between the two and it becomes very obvious to the viewers like what's going to happen when that wall starts cracking people are going to try and leave leave Vell side of the island go to satosi side of the island I mean it's it's just obvious if my money is is a is is becoming higher is having higher purchasing power year of year in satosi and I'm losing money hand over fist in purchasing power in felos why on Earth would I want felos and and just this realization is just so clear it hits people in the face
(44:28) and so what starts to happen is people and money leave fiell side of the island and then fiell is having to think okay well I can't just print more money because that doesn't solve it I've now got to do something else and that something else is to um change another aspect of the money so I'm going to remove the censorship resistant nature of it I'm going to force everyone to put it in the banks they can't just hold it themselves anymore they've got to put it in the banks and I'm going to centralize it all and I'm going to make the banks
(44:57) protect everybody um you know check all the transactions and effectively introduce Capital controls by the back door and greater levels of of population control which looks even more like today right and so you know it it then sort of spirals a bit further out of control and then I take people through what the impacts of that are for the various uh people within Society so you know the poor the middle earners the wealthy and then they're politically connected and sort of draw that distinction around you know all these
(45:33) groups are impacted but impacted in slightly different ways but all negatively is just a a a question of magnitude and the only people who are not negatively impacted here are they're politically connected because they're the ones benefiting from the money printer and so um you know it goes from there to thinking about like what's the end game for Pella because you know you the only thing you do is press the big red button and so like you know the end game is you know inflation bordering on hyperinflation it's asset seizures now
(46:09) everything's in the banks people he's going to have to bail everybody in and he can do that whenever and you know we've seen that in Cyprus in 2013 we've seen that in the US effectively in 1933 with the gold you know it's communism because people don't understand what's happened they see Society has deteriorated all around them and at every stage it's been the solution has been oh well the government has to fix this there's more and more problems the government has created and therefore every stage the solutions always been more
(46:42) government and because the government don't explain where these new issues came from they don't explain that it came from the money printer by first order second order third order effects the population don't know and so they walk into communism which is just the absolute opposite of what you should be doing like the failure of the system is blamed on the failure of capitalism which is the absolute opposite of what it is it's the corruption of capitalism which has led to the led to the issues and you know we see this all around ourselves today um
(47:16) or potentially you know something even more destructive um and then I sort of bring them back to like you know now we've gone from adelic Islands um on two sides to Adil Island on one side and one side absolutely destroyed um and take them back to those seven characteristics of money like he he only changed two of them you know the seven perfect Chara seven characteristics of perfect money he he only changed the the fixed Supply and the censorship resistant and look look at what happened right and at this point people are very much connected f
(47:57) side of the island to today's world in their minds as well as understanding you know getting some level of familiarity with some of the nenat like satosi versus Fiat etc etc as we go through and then the reveal is that you know it's very clear fiell are terrible very clear like why would you ever want felos rather than satosi and then the reveal is well the US dollar is just a terrible version of the fiell right because it's you know it's corrupted on these two same measures but it's worse on the other five as
(48:35) well you know portability divisibility you know all these these all these other things and you know fundability as one I touch on cbdcs in there you know a dollar is a dollar for now but you know in many parts of the world that's that's no longer the case right and and then it's sort of explaining what happened with uh you know the history of debt and the um de basement of the dollar with the charts especially since 1971 and effectively that the money printer is just is just destroying the productivity for everybody and the purchasing power
(49:12) for everyone um and that it's all you know it's fairly depressing but you you get to the realization right I understand where this came from now but I didn't understand the magnitude of this issue you know 36 trillion in debt losing two trillion a year and 200 trillion of unfunded liabilities I mean that's that's a pretty shocking hole to be in um and that's and that's the best one you know and then I sure all the the percentage changes versus the dollar over 10 years for every other currency and it's a total
(49:45) disaster you take the dollar over everything you know some currencies have ceased to exist completely and so you know when you when you realize that every Slide the situation is actually getting even worse than you thought it was before but you've already made the mental decision that you never even wanted Fe a tell and that's now looking much better than where we are today it just transports people to a much more openminded place to be like okay I never really realized it was this bad and I never knew where these issues came
(50:21) from right but now I have this mental framework and then the final rby is okay this is all really bad but there is a solution and the good news is satosi are real and that you should learn about Bitcoin yeah and that's it how uh how many sh how many individuals have you shocked giving this person you're giving this presentation in person I have I gave it's 15 people in Portugal um I have given it to maybe 30 others in small groups one two to five um and then I was very kindly invited um to a mini Bitcoin conference
(51:11) in Bristol in the UK which is about 80 bitcoiners um they amazingly allow me to get up on stage with the microphone in my hand having sort of took a bit of a punt on me um but that went amazingly well um and you know nothing but kind words from from the bitcoiners and you know really excited to get the video and so uh yeah it it's it's great it's great I'm I'm I'm so happy it's out there but Marty I I wouldn't I can't explain to you how there's one slide in particular which is that flowchart slide about you know the money printer to this to this
(51:55) to this to this and the number of people at the end of that slide say oh my God I never knew this I never knew this everybody should see this right it it blows my mind um and so yeah I just I would just love everybody to watch it all Bitcoin is to watch it just once 305 minutes e time and then send it to everyone you care about um and I would I would really love it to be for Bitcoins to have in their mind is like the first Gentle Touch point for Bitcoin you send this to people they will then ask you to send them something
(52:40) else um because they'll they'll want to learn about it um rather than bashing them over the head which is what we what we normally do isn't it yeah yeah no it's uh it's something I've been I've been taking a lot of introspection on recently particularly because of an episode I recorded about a month ago with uh these two guys that run a podcast War mode and there are two blue collar guys that stumbled into the podcasting world and stumbled into some success with it but they still uh paint houses and um that uh operate trash
(53:21) trucks in the Philadelphia area and I think it was humbling to me sitting there having the conversation we just essentially did a did a collaborative episode where it was all right you guys come on tftc and you ask us all your Bitcoin questions that you think are stupid and there's no stupid questions just ask them and the concept of uh of inflation was completely they they could not connect it to the money printer for for whatever reason and through that conversation ultimately at the end I think they got through to them but it
(53:57) reminded me that most people I mean it's been been used time and time again this analogy but like the fish and water they don't understand that the water they're swimming in is toxic to an extent because of the money printer and in this flowchart that exists and and it affects everything and I think telling a story around this is incredibly impactful because people need to have that that moment where they're they're shaking up and said yeah this is the problem these problems that we all know exist and and can feel
(54:32) inherently do have a root cause at the center which is this this red button that the government and the central banks keep hitting um and that's the that's the the nefarious thing about it too is they keep hitting it and keep saying that you have to come back to them like Fiat tell like no I'll solve your problems we're going to hit the button we're going to we're going to do all these things we're going make make things better this time I promise this time we're going to figure it out and the the solution is simply to remove the
(55:00) red button from from the equation entirely exactly the only solution is the separation of money and state the government cannot be allowed to have a big red button that's it and and and you know as a message to people that is much more much more accessible than to you know trying to explain about the fed and you know you know you know what what happened on Jackal Island and you know all of the all of these things it's like we can get to that level of detail if people want to drill down to that level of detail but if we can give them a
(55:38) narrative an accurate narrative on which they can sort of hang the mental model it just makes it much more accessible I think you know this the the sort of the visual of the big red button and fiell just pressing this in the background whenever he needs to is like quite a powerful um powerful way of thinking about it these people but but the thing is half the time the population well most of the time the population don't even know he's pressing it which makes it even worse because he's pressing it in in the dark room and then when the effects are
(56:14) coming out he's pointing at everybody else saying it's because of the greedy businessmen or it's because of that you know the billionaires or that foreign dictator you know that's where the inflation is coming from not from this thing I've got behind in the dark you know um yeah I'm I'm having flash flashbacks to Neil cashcari there's unlimited cash at the Federal Reserve and then Jerome pal at the same time asks how how do you actually create money we hit a button we we digitally create it he literally said we hit a
(56:45) button we print it print it digitally yeah I mean those two those two Snippets I there was a version of this presentation I actually had those two Snippets in in this presentation I taking it out cuz I thought you know it's um it probably diales a bit too a bit too far into reality for for people end up taking them out again but but those are shocking things they are absolutely shocking things to to say but you know they people don't necessarily un connect the magnitude of those comments to their own reality which I think um you know if
(57:25) they end up seeing those things after they've seen this presentation they'll understand you know how Insidious that is yeah I agree it's an incredible presentation thank you thank you for for making it and hopping on to record this so quickly today um so I think it's important to get the word out there especially as we head into 2025 and things seem like they're going to heat up I mean the price is already bouncing right below and above 100,000 and I imagine if things go the way they have uh in last Cycles in terms
(58:06) of adoption waves and people's curiosity about Bitcoin it's about to increase significantly and it's important that they have really valuable and credible and easy to understand and groc resources at their fingertips and so I think the timing of you launching this uh on January 7th 2025 going to be better well I can't take any credit for the timing other than just you know it's it's by chance but I'm I'm glad it's I'm glad it's working out you know the bitcoin's going through this uh supercharged legitimacy enhancing phase I think at
(58:47) the moment and that you may go on steroids in two weeks time when the new Administration comes in you know it's it's sort of the social stigma of being associated withit with Bitcoin is gone is now turning into I think the opposite increasingly you know if you're not thinking about this for your self for your company for your country you are at risk of being left behind and you know especially with the you know micro strategy male have done a a tremendous job of raising the profile of of Bitcoin from a you know company
(59:33) perspective but at some point it does tip to being a you are obligated to be thinking about this and planning for a Bitcoin future otherwise you're not fulfilling your fiduciary duties and and the same applies to you increasingly you as individuals right especially when you start seeing legitimacy coming down from above you know we've gone from individuals holding it almost straight to nation states and now we're sort of fill in the Gap in the middle right and when you when your government turns around and says the
(1:00:10) government's buying Bitcoin that is a stamp of legitimacy for the uninformed population that Bitcoin is no longer this no longer for the criminals or you know whatever they previously labeled it as um so I hope over 2025 we end up seeing you know a much broader segment of the population being receptive and actively wanting to learn about Bitcoin um and for anybody who shows any inkling of openness that I would love them see this presentation and then hopefully we can send them a whole ream of additional content to to get out the
(1:00:51) curve as quickly as possible yeah and that's another call to action I would throw out there is if if you're somebody who's mad at the state of the world you're mad that your grocery bill is increasing month- on month it's getting harder to pay the rent at the end of the month to pay your mortgage you're going into credit card debt uh your your medical bills are are racking up and you feel like the the quality of the goods and services that you're being provided to the market are are going down and um you're out there
(1:01:25) blaming the government or big corporations for these problems as Joe has pointed out and described incredibly well in his presentation what's the problem it's the money at the root of all these problems and I think due to the legitimacy that that has been given to bitcoin that Joe just explained the stamp of approval from the governments and the fact that Bitcoin is 16 years old now and uh is not going to die if you think it's going to die uh you are wrong and and more importantly it has all the seven properties of good money I think most
(1:02:02) importantly that it's open source transparent and anybody can participate and so as it stands today in 2025 if you are complaining about all these things and and looking to the government or some other actor to solve these problems you have the ability and the agency to solve this problem Yourself by simply adopting the better money Satoshi and I think I don't want to brow beat anybody but I think you should seriously consider um watching this presentation if you're new to bitcoin um to understand the problem and more
(1:02:38) importantly understand that you yourself can take action to solve this problem for yourself as an individual and collectively if enough individuals take action to solve their individual problems Society will benefit in the long run and I think uh I think I truly believe that more and more people are going to wake up to this and are waking up to this and um the the question is just how quickly are are they going to adopt and take the agency to make the change so that we can fix all these problems that are laid out in the
(1:03:11) flowchart in in the what's the problem presentation because they are massive as we described earlier they have led to a lower quality of life and a lot of social incohesion desperation Despair and it's not a state that ity should be in we have incredible resources at our fingertips we just need to fix the core of the problem which is the money yeah yeah couldn't couldn't agree couldn't agree more and you know we we are very fortunate Mar to live in in countries in the west where you know we do suffer from these problems but the
(1:03:49) extent to which we suffer from them pales in comparison to those around the rest of the world and you know the US in particular now is at is in such a good position in the next few weeks for the backdrop for um the embracing of Bitcoin and the the harnessing of all the good things that will come from embracing Bitcoin um it really is the MBA of the rest of the world with the wrong um yeah well Joe hopefully this is the first of many hopefully the next time we record I've got a proper mic and set up and I'm not uh next to a busy street in the
(1:04:35) middle of the Jungle with with motorcycles driving by but I think this was a a great conversation I'm I'm pumped that we were able to connect today and thank you for making what's the problem um where can anybody is listening we're going to link to it in the show nuts but beyond finding that link and sharing it what else do you think people were listening to this do well um you can find it on YouTube I've also created uh a website where it's embedded at SATs versus Fiat uh.
(1:05:12) com uh SATs vs fiat.com and so if you are just getting started with wanting to learn about Bitcoin then you can go and stick your email address in there and you'll get sent some stter material on bitcoin um to help you get up the curve this is M I should say this is not in any way a commercial thing uh for me this is a a charitable educational thing um and so I just want as many people as possible to see this um as I said it's an accidental creation is it's not my it's not my main area of focus um but you can follow um with the same handle on X and you know
(1:05:54) connect with me as well if you like my um hand is s Mo Joo which hopefully will also put in the in the show notes on on X you know I've been some be in the background for for a while um but I always happy to happy to connect with people and hopefully um can focus on building more great stuff for for Bitcoin awesome Joe keep crushing it uh thank you for coming on and uh we'll do this again at some point like I said better set up on my end yeah well thank you so much for having me m it's a it's a pleasure and you know
(1:06:37) as yeah I I never thought I'd be on this podcast so thank you for having me the first time we going to be on together that's all we got today for peace and love
