Leon Wankum explains how Bitcoin’s fixed supply could absorb the $300 trillion real estate market’s monetary premium, reshaping wealth storage and financial strategy for developers and investors.
The real estate market, traditionally seen as a stable store of wealth, is facing major disruption with the rise of Bitcoin. Leon argues that Bitcoin, with its fixed supply and superior monetary properties, is poised to absorb the $300 trillion monetary premium that real estate has carried as a hedge against inflation since the U.S. left the gold standard in 1971. As Bitcoin’s purchasing power grows at over 50% annually, it outpaces traditional real estate investments, making it critical for developers and investors to integrate Bitcoin into their financial strategies to avoid being left behind. Incorporating Bitcoin into credit structures could also make housing more affordable, as real estate prices revert to their utility value, ultimately benefiting both developers and consumers.
This episode highlights the potential disruption Bitcoin poses to the real estate market as it grows in adoption and purchasing power. As Bitcoin offers a more accessible, liquid, and efficient store of value, traditional real estate investments face increasing risk. Developers and investors must adapt by integrating Bitcoin into their business models to protect against inflation and shifting financial dynamics. For consumers, this change could lead to more affordable housing, as real estate prices realign with utility value. Ultimately, the episode raises a broader question: how many industries beyond real estate will Bitcoin reshape as its influence grows?
0:00 - Intro
0:57 - Leon's background
5:13 - How did the real estate premium develop?
12:15 - Why bitcoin improves real estate
17:54 - Bitkey
18:49 - Higher quality, lower cost
23:52 - Why the macro environment may temper the next bull
26:51 - Bitcoin will threaten real estate business models
34:00 - When should a bitcoiner buy a house?
38:29 - Bitcoin will take over real estate's collateral function
44:52 - First movers and trend setters
54:22 - Bitcoin is easier
59:28 - Real estate will be drained like monarchs in the industrial revolution
1:06:17 - A unique shield against societal collapse
1:13:14 - Plugs
(00:00) so if you work in real estate my personal opinion is you need to get into Bitcoin otherwise your business will most likely die Bitcoin is going to absorb the monetary premium that sits in real estate today that has some side effects that Real Estate Investors need to deal with increase of that premium $300 trillion in real estate assets globally like if you had to Ballpark it like at the end of the day when bitcoin's fully monetized real estate has been demonetized down to its utility value like how big do you think the
(00:25) overall real estate market is globally real estate should be between 5 to 10 and and if you start to look at your real estate portfolio and you measure its wealth in Bitcoin you start to understand that it's rapidly losing value against Bitcoin Bitcoin is growing right now at a kegger over 50% a year in purchasing power so even if you buy real estate on Leverage Bitcoin still performs better it's just something that I want to put out there and if you don't believe me just go through the numbers and calculate it yourself it's actually
(00:52) going to blow your mind Leon long time coming Welcome to the show thank you Marty good to see you this is our second conversation we did one on the last trade earlier this year but haven't had you on tftc yet and as I was mentioning I've been rewatching your your talks at conferences Baltic honey badger and Prague both from earlier this year I think it's important what you're working on the intersection of Bitcoin in real estate we also had the luxury meeting in person earlier this year at the Bitcoin urbanism meet up here in uh
(01:32) here in the Commons and I think the realm that you're playing in is is really interesting and is one of the starkest highlights of how Bitcoin can really help people protect themselves from Fiat Decay particularly in the world of real estate so I guess jumping into it how did you figure this out yourself I know you've told this story but for anybody who hasn't heard it yeah on on this show want to give a little bit about your background and how you came to this thesis about the intersection of Bitcoin in in real estate yeah for sure
(02:09) so first of all thank you for having me um I also believe it's important I mean if I wouldn't be here Bitcoin would still do its thing and would still demonetize real estate but at least maybe I can give some guidance for um for bitcoiners to to be able to to weather the storm that is that is coming in the Fiat system so how did I get to where I am today um I learned about Bitcoin in University that was before I went to work in the real estate industry and um back in the day students were using Bitcoin for you know various
(02:42) reasons and it was just a thing that people did and I um watched some friends using Bitcoin to pay for goods and services on the internet and I thought that was pretty cool and then I started to look into the technology and I learned about the cipher punks and I learned about austan economics and I was studying um philosophy and then Financial economics at the time and I was uh at a Keynesian based uh University so um learning about money being a store of value was actually something new because I thought of money
(03:15) as a medium of exchange as you do as a as a Keynesian and then after leaving University um I went into the real estate industry and that is a family business basically it's the business I grew up on I grew up on building SES uh I I worked the Summers on building side since I'm 14 basically so the building environment is something that I grew up with or I grew up in and um as I continued my journey in real estate I started to understand the the role of real estate as an inflation hatch and I also started to understand how broken
(03:49) the Fiat system is because I thought it's actually pretty strange that we live in a digitalized world but we're using a physical object like real estate to store value and um that has a very low uh frequency it's easy to destroy low liquidity and um it's also inaccess as a store of value right and then I looked at the market cap of real estate and I saw the market cap is over $300 trillion and then I looked at the market cap of Bitcoin at the time it was I don't know what it was but it was
(04:20) definitely lower than today and even at a trillion dollars I thought wow if real estate is 300 times as large as Bitcoin and Bitcoin is a much Superior store of value because it's a digital store of value and it's an engineered monetary technology which has one purpose not just only but it serves as independent money right um and then I thought wow so here's here's the opportunity for Bitcoin the opportunity of Bitcoin is not the gold market it's actually the real estate market plus the gold market
(04:49) and other objects that I used to store value and um then I also um went down a rabbit hole of how to integrate Bitcoin into real estate um practices or real estate business model because I obviously think that Bitcoin is going to absorb the monetary premium that sits in real estate today and um that has some side effects that Real Estate Investors need to deal with yeah I think may we start off building on that I definitely want to get into Bitcoin eating into the monetary premium of real estate like how how
(05:27) much how big is the Delta between the current monetary premium that exists within the asset that is real estate and where will real estate and Bitcoin beet in the middle but before we get to that like how did this monetary premium develop in the first place it is I believe the largest store value Asset uh in the world people are using it as a store value all over the place and when you consider the properties of real estate which you which you alluded to earlier um but we can dig into more specifically here it really
(06:06) doesn't feel like a good store of value when you consider the fact that it's illiquid uh it comes with taxes Insurance um it mainenance costs susceptible to damage from storms as we've seen here in the United States the last few weeks with these hurricanes why Why Real Estate is the the go-to store value for for many people across the world over the last century yeah it's a very good question also when you look into the history of real estate over different time periods and different societies you can well you
(06:37) basically see that it's a fairly new phenomenon that real estate is used um as money as a store of value in particular because historically speaking it is true that real estate was always tied to wealth so in Rome for example the Senators had to own land so you had to own land in order um to be able to be a senator also in ancient Greece to my knowledge you had to own land in order to Ro and uh also uh in different Empires um also the sugar nut system in Japan um feudal landlords basically took on the the major roles within Society so
(07:13) real estate was always tied to wealth but the way that real estate was um evaluated was on this agricultural capacity not its use as money and that is something that uh can we can link to 1971 um when Richard Nixon announced that the US would abandon the fixed link of uh the dollar and gold and at that point of time um the monetary Supply started to increase um drastically and real estate interestingly follows the increase of the monetary Supply since 1971 on average so the keger the compound annual growth rate for the M2
(07:53) money supply in the US is around 6.8% and the increase in residential housing is about 5 7% so there's a trend here housing follows uh the increase in the monetary Supply so now the question is why um obviously it is also because of scarcity so real estate is scarce and a scarse asset helps to protect purchasing power from inflation because as new monetary units enter the market existing monetary units lose purchasing power and people are forced to invest and then the question is why do people invest in real estate there are other
(08:29) objects in the world other Assets in the world like gold for example that are scarcer and in my opinion it is because of uh the role that real estate has in repaying debt so real estate usually is bought with debt nobody or at least nobody who's rational within the Fiat system would buy uh real estate 100% cash people usually have about 20 30% of their own equity and they take um financing as well and Banks create that money that they give out for mortgages and then they charge interest rate on it so that's a business model basically so
(09:07) real estate has taken on a particular role in the Fiat system because it allows Banks to create new money give that money out in credit lines for the purchase of real estate and then people pay back that debt with the cash flow of the real estate so there's a particular role of real estate within the inflationary fi system that has led to its use as the number one store value or the number one inflation yeah and it's got to it's got to a point at least here in the United States I'm going to call it crisis but as you
(09:37) mentioned earlier it's not really an accessible sore value for the Layman like it's big theme particularly postco is the inaccessibility and um the lack of affordability of housing Millennials people our age are are finding it hard to buy their first homes because they're Laden with so much student loan debt they're not making as much in the job market and the the feeling that the ability to own a home for Our Generation uh is fleeting at this point where people are becoming convinced that if
(10:13) they can't get a house right now they won't be able to as more people funnel their wealth into these houses the people with wealth funnel it into into homes and real estate yeah totally I mean um to well it's it's difficult because you you asked earlier you were talking about the monetary premium that sits in real estate and what is meant with the monetary premium is um there's utility value in housing you can live in it or you can rent it out you can use it for production or you can use it for uh
(10:47) agricultural uh capacity but today it's used as a store value so it's used as money so the money that's invested in real estate not because of its utility value but because it's a scarse asset that is used to hatch get inflation that is the monetary premium that you alluded to and it's difficult actually to say how high that monetary premium is but I was looking into the cost of real estate you know prior to uh the Fiat system in the 1940s the average uh price of a home in the US was around
(11:19) $4,000 right today it's about $530 so it's very difficult to say what percentage of that is the monetary premium because it is also more expensive to build real estate obviously back in the day uh most of the cost for Real Estate were not the land but the manufacturing cost and labor and today um land has become increasingly expensive because of its of its scarcity but to say exactly what is the percentage of the monetary premium that sits in real estate is difficult because construction costs have gone up with
(11:54) inflation as well but if you look at the Dynamics and you understand that uh the average price of a home was around $4,000 in the' 40s and today is over half a million dollars you can pretty much understand to what extent uh homes have been inflated yeah over 100 he at this point which is pretty insane yeah and I guess this gets to the inter it seems like a big problem like I said many people particularly Millennials gen Z see it as a problem that's running away from them that can never be solved and you're pretty adamant and con vinced
(12:30) that that Bitcoin is a way to to solve this problem not only for the end consumer who's inevitably going to buy a house and and leverage its utility to house themselves and do other things maybe they have land they want to build a farm or something like that but also on the development side to to make sure that you can actually build these things and do it in a way that's efficient from an economic perspective and allows you to um prevent potential default um considering the the amount of time it takes from initial Capital injection to
(13:07) construction and then eventually finding people to to actually live in those homes or those retail commercial real estate properties no for sure for sure um I quickly maybe just elaborate on why I believe that um Bitcoin can make housing affordable over time and then I'll go into details of how real estate develop velers can utilize Bitcoin to stay competitive and to continuously provide housing to the market so if you think about it number one if you hold Bitcoin as an individual Things become cheaper because Bitcoin is scarer than
(13:43) the monetary Supply um that is quite simple Right Things become cheaper over time if you hold Bitcoin and secondly because Bitcoin is a superior store value I can imagine that going forward especially the generations that you talked about Millennials and this gen Generations that came after they will naturally be um inclined I believe to prefer using Bitcoin to store value because you know there it's there are digital generations and it's more accessible H and that uh most likely will result in people preferring Bitcoin to store value
(14:20) over real estate which results in less demand for real estate and then thirdly and this is also something that will connect to your question um as a real estate developer you have a problem so because of inflation yes the nominal value of real estate increases over time because of increasing demand but the construction costs go up as well so what you usually do as a landlord you increase rents to increase your profits because if construction maintenance costs go up you want to make up for that and you increase rents but by utilizing
(14:53) Bitcoin as a store of value by incorporating Bitcoin as a store of value within the real estate world real real estate developers and landlords are less dependent on raising rents to counterbalance inflation and I think it's a pretty good example of how Bitcoin can benefit both the entrepreneur and the consumer at the same time and something that I believe is a sensible strategy is what you just mentioned is that of course you can use Bitcoin to build maintenance reserves if you own property already and you can
(15:24) also refinance that property to buy Bitcoin what what I believe is actually a very good strategy is that for every new development project a good idea is to include Bitcoin in the financing of the project so let's say you want to finance a project and you take an additional loan amount and you buy Bitcoin immediately and you hold Bitcoin in the same entity that's going to construct the real estate project once the real estate project is finished after 5 years Bitcoin will most likely right have Bitcoin will most likely gone
(15:59) through a harving cycle right because we know historically speaking every four years the amount of Bitcoin that's being distributed to whoever successfully orders and adds a block to the time chain halves and with less Supply and actually demand that stays the same price goes up over time and because price goes up over time demand goes up which then creates this speculative bubble in the bull markets that we know and this really helps the real estate developer to protect against downside risk because what often happen happens
(16:29) is and I now I can share a personal story so recently we finished a project after seven years but we wanted to finish it after 5 years so the problem is once we had the financing from the bank we had a window a building window of five years but we it took us a little bit longer that also meant we needed more money because in that time frame because of Co the cost for wood went up significantly by like 40% that meant the construction cost of that project went up so we had to go back to the bank we had to ask for more money we had to take
(17:03) out more money at higher interest rates and that cost us a lot basically but ideally if you would have bought Bitcoin when we started the project after 5 years those Bitcoin would have increased in purchasing power and we could have ideally lent against those Bitcoin at a favorable interest rate that we would have maybe been able to fix at the beginning of that loan and we would have protected us against that downside because Bitcoin increases in purchasing power over time as the monetary Supply increases and that would have allowed us
(17:37) to lend against that Bitcoin and then fund further construction and so Bitcoin can really help you as a real estate developer to protect yourself against downside risk and to build credit worthiness within your company which is very very important in the real estate business because it's so Capital intense so freaks this rip of tftc was brought to you by our good friends at bit key bit key makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose it is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a two three multisig you have one key on the
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(18:35) to self- custody if you have friends and family on the exchanges who haven't moved it off tell them to pick up a big key go to big key. world use the key tftc 20 at checkout for 20% off your order that's bit keyworld code TFT C20 with that like do you think obviously we're at the very early stages of this you have been beating the drum on this Andrew hones the team of battery Finance very similarly others like Kelly lanon have been talking about this Bitcoin back mortgages have been a theme that
(19:06) people are trying to figure out how to crack the nut and get it across the Finish Line it seems like the narrative is definitely gaining momentum but up until this point in terms of being able to execute on the strategy it's it's very few people and um sort of not there yet but I imagine it's going to happen it just makes too much sense and that that last thing you just said like once this becomes normalized whether when it comes to like bringing down cost we can get to like material cost and obviously the price of constructing
(19:46) these houses and these real estate development projects has gone up over time and not only that but the quality of the materials used to build these projects has gone down so if that prices go up quality go down we can talk about how this strategy over time can get us back to a place where we're using more quality um inputs to actually build more sustainable housing that that lasts for centuries instead of decades but particularly on the cost of capital side like once this become normalized do you think that this will allow developers
(20:18) like yourselves and then consumers buying these houses to access lower cost to Capital because you have this this Bitcoin portion living within the entity whether it's The Entity that builds the project or the the mortgage and loan that you take out um to to buy the by the the end product ultimately yeah um well put uh and good question because I believe so yes so as you mentioned there are more and more real estate developers um that understand the benefits of Bitcoin and also the superiority of Bitcoin as a store of value towards
(20:56) Bitcoin so this is just um some something that is going to happen so in my opinion the speculation that is currently happening in real estate that's going to move over to bitcoin and Bitcoin um will grow as a store of value much faster than real estate and real estate will return to being a regular business where you provide a service to the market and you receive rent in return and um if you think about it so there are two systems right now existing in parallel so there's the Fiat system that's a system of inflation and then
(21:28) there's a Bitcoin which which is a disinflationary system meaning there's less new Supply and the way the technology Works technology is naturally deflationary meaning Things become cheaper over time and Bitcoin is just able to basically um work within the natural frame of uh the universe really or economics and the Fiat system which is totally anti the natural state of of the universe of econ iics or of humanity works the other way around so what I'm trying to say is the following if I'm a real estate developer and I only work
(22:06) within the Fiat system I have an incentive basically to provide a service to the market that goes down in quality because if I want to increase my profit margin I will use building materials that are of less quality I will uh build something that is cheap because money loses value where with Bitcoin because Bitcoin increases in purchasing power I'm not really dependent on increasing my profit margin all the time I can really rely on the increase in purchasing power of Bitcoin and that will allow us as a real estate
(22:43) developer and as as as an asset manager to um to benefit of the increase and purchasing power of Bitcoin and provide better and more quality housing to the market that will take time though because right now um I have to be honest the market is very very tough so if I would be sitting here and if I would just say you know things are great and it's so easy to integrate Bitcoin into the existing business structure I would be lying because um things have become so expensive in the building environment that it's just very tough right now to
(23:17) just survive uh in Europe at least that's the case and it's also from what I hear from North America so it's going to take time I think it's going to take at least 5 years to a decade because first we have to acire the Bitcoin and and then the Bitcoin have to increase in purchasing power so this is nothing that can happen within a few years but if you have a long-term Vision which you should have as a real estate developer utilizing Bitcoin and benefiting from its increase in purchasing power should
(23:45) allow you to provide better products for the market which would also have mean that the consumer uh benefits and that's that there was one thing you mentioned in your Baltic honey badger um presentation that stuck out to me and it was sort of imp passing uh and I think it you mentioned the context of Bitcoin which is uh we think these fouryear Cycles repeat and it seems like POS having uh we could be heading into another bull market but that could be tempered due to the macro environment seems like right now the macro
(24:21) environment is getting a little shaky which could affect both real estate and Bitcoin um not only from the economic perspective well definitely from the economic perspective now also we have news out of China this week that they're going to begin uh taxing uh foreign investments a lot of which for Chinese citizens that are getting money outside the the borders of China has gone into foreign real estate and I guess uh sort of putting you on the spot here but if we do have deterioration in macro um fundamentals moving forward
(24:57) like it it could have negatively affect both the housing market and maybe not negatively affect Bitcoin but um sort of dampen uh its potential upside in this bull market what are your what are your thoughts on that why' you say that specifically in in r a couple months ago yeah um so the reason why I said that I believe this Bitcoin bull market might not be as great as we want it to be is because of what you mentioned geopolitical risk and macro risk um I think at this point um the Fiat system has reached a point where nation states
(25:32) need to be very careful um how much money they inject into the system because of the risk that is involved with injecting new money into the system predominantly inflation so we can maybe liken this decade or we can compare this decade to the 70s in the 70s we had high inflation and interest rates were ramped up to 18% so in 1981 the interest rates were about 19% and that led to a a liquidity crisis um so it's really difficult right now on the one side within the Fiat system you need to dampen inflation but you need to provide
(26:08) liquidity to the system because otherwise the system will basically die um and I don't really know what people are going to do but they need to do it in a in a way that is sensible because around 25% of the dollars in existence were funneled into the market and during Co and we still deal with with those problems so I think people need to be aware of nation states seing to have um you know if we if we compare it with interest rates post 08 interest rates probably need to be above 3% to maintain um uh inflation below I'd say you know
(26:44) I'm not talking about CPI inflation I'm talking about monetary Supply increase between you know maybe like 3 to 7% or something like that and um and then also answering the first part of your question um you're absolutely correct so if you work in real estate my personal opinion is you need to get into Bitcoin otherwise your business will most likely die like it's it's just that simple in my opinion because I can see what's happening around me people are going bankrupt left and right and things are
(27:12) going to get worse I think because Bitcoin is just such an accessible store of value and just think about conversations you have conversations I had two three years ago people would come up to me and they' say you know Leon I saved some money and I want to buy real estate what would you uh recommend me to do I'd always say buy Bitcoin I always said that and people said you know you're totally nuts and I want to have a secure store of value and now if I talk about Millennials and people that are younger I'd say 90% of
(27:43) them they actually ask me how can I buy Bitcoin and because of that I believe that the demand for Real Estate will not be the same like it was since um 2008 because after 2008 interest rates were so low that it was very easy to get financing and buy real estate and the nominal value of real estate increased so drastically but that is changing now because interest rates need to stay as I mentioned above 3% or 2 and a half% to Tamper inflation and uh that makes real estate inaccessible so if you work in real estate just be aware there will be
(28:20) most likely less demand and there's a new technology that is threatening your business model because your business model is dependent on people using the asset of real estate to store value and because there's a better store value now that business model is actually kind of broken so if you think about it the real estate business model that existed since 1971 it just doesn't exist anymore how many people in your industry do you think realize this that is a good question um probably few uh very few um I
(28:57) wouldn't be able to say you know 5% 10% but I'm going to try and take a guess maybe yeah 2 3% something like that I've got a bunch of friends in commercial real estate uh developers I don't really bro the subject with them they know I'm the Bitcoin guy but I don't want to be too pushy they everybody likes to think that they know their domain and who am I to come in and say hey maybe you should be allocating to bitcoin um but and think about injecting it into your credit structures but do you think
(29:33) the overall perception within real estate globally maybe you can only speak to the markets that you're in but is that oh no things are going to go back to the way they were I mean it's like fish and water we've had the market dynamics um act in such a way for for so long that that many people have this I don't maybe not cognitive dissonance but just expectation that we're going through cycles and yes there may be times when interest rates are high and it's hard to sell and hard to build but
(30:06) but things always go back to normal is you think that's where the the state of mind is in commercial real estate and real estate development yeah I think so um and I think you can liken the real estate market to the bond market um and the way that I mean it is in the bond market you know the general idea is you know Bond or governments can't go bankrupt because they can print money that's like you know that's a general thesis um and in real estate there's a similar mindset people think you know the nominal value of real
(30:40) estate is going to increase forever because n nation states need to print money in order to cope uh with borrowing cost but I think the intellectual fallacy that is happening here is generally speaking that's not wrong yes the nominal value of real estate will continue to increase if a new monetary Supply is provided to the market but then the the thing is um what is the unit of account you're using right if you're using the dollar as your unit of account you are making a mistake I think you need to use Bitcoin as your
(31:15) unit of account because it's a scarcer asset and thus it serves as a better unit of account also because its issuance shutle is known so how can somebody sometimes I ask myself I mean it took me some years as well to make that mental switch so I'm not criticizing anyone but now after being down the Bitcoin rabbit hole for a few years I ask myself sometimes why do people use a unit of account that's losing value and the supply is unknown rather than Bitcoin which has a known Supply and a fixed Supply as well and if
(31:48) you start to look at your real estate portfolio and you measure its wealth in Bitcoin you start to understand that it's rapidly losing value against Bitcoin and um it's losing value very drastically when I made that switch and I started to look at our real estate portfol in Bitcoin around four or five years ago I basically freaked out because I realized wow we are losing a lot of purchasing power lot of capital A lot of money a lot of value here by not having Bitcoin integrated into our real estate uh portfolio and it's one thing
(32:22) to say Bitcoin is a superior store of value and it's another thing to say I want to U ize Bitcoin as a technology because making the step of saying Bitcoin is the P store of value might be difficult if you worked in the real estate industry for a long time things worked out well you maybe became very wealthy you made good decisions and then you have a cognitive dissonance thinking that you will make good decisions going forward so one thing that's easy to do is use Bitcoin to build maintenance reserves and protect your cash flow from
(32:53) inflation that's like something that I can suggest everybody that is a landlord everybody that owns property to do that's the first step but once you go down that rabbit hole the Bitcoin rabbit hole and you start to realize it's a better unit of account than the dollar the idea of real estate is going up in value forever might switch into Bitcoin is going up in a value forever and people usually think uh real estate is a good investment they might think real estate is a liability once they understand that Bitcoin increases in
(33:26) purchasing power much faster yeah I mean that that's like a big meme in the Bitcoin World which is like don't buy real estate buy Bitcoin for all the reasons more liquid digital very scarce no maintenance cost no insurance no property taxes and that's always been the question in my mind because as a millennial with the growing family I'd like to have like a forever house and I guess that's the question uh that many bitcoiners are asking it's like uh the big meme particularly I think it's
(33:57) become more pronounced last year it's like don't don't buy rent um but I would like to own a house eventually and I guess that's just like the calculus that I'm trying to pull out of you is is when do it makes when will it make sense to buy a house for a bitcoiner versus rent and um how should you be looking at your property again I think that's what people really need to understand is that this is somewhat of a consumable good like you you live in it you um have wear and tear you literally consume the
(34:28) materials that it's made of just by walking on them and opening and shutting doors leads to wear and tear it creates maintenance or consuming those goods and um I don't know it's a question I think about a lot is like because we we're renting right now making the decision to forgo a massive down payment at high interest rates on what I deem to be a somewhat inflated asset in real estate particularly here in Austin Texas uh and looking forward I do want a house that I own and I live in for for decades my
(35:02) family it's like what yeah what factors go into that decision in your mind yeah um I'll answer that question shortly because I've been thinking about it as well um but I want to first uh talk about leverage just quickly because uh most Real Estate Investors say Okay Bitcoin is interesting but I need a lot of capital which I don't have um and it's easier to buy real estate because I get a loan so I can buy bit real estate on Leverage they basically say real estate is a better investment because of
(35:33) the leverage but mathematically speaking that's actually not true because if you think about uh the return on on a real estate project on an annual base the the cap rate um I I just say right now it's probably but the the year on-year um increase that that you can make on your money is probably around two and a half to 3% so let's say you have um five 5x leverage because you usually use borrowed money to buy real estate 3 * 5 that's 15% a year Bitcoin is growing right now at a kegger if we take the
(36:07) last four years of course it's changing also in the future it's going to dampen down as the market cap of Bitcoin increases but right now it's growing over 50% a year in purchasing power so even if you buy real estate on Leverage Bitcoin still performs better it's just something that I want to put out there and if you don't believe me just go through the numbers and calculate it yourself it's actually going to blow your mind uh how um fast uh putting money and saving money in Bitcoin is
(36:34) outperforming investing in real estate and then um to answer your question so I've been thinking about it myself as well and I was thinking what is the utility value that housing has for me um right now I'm thinking the opportunity cost of putting money in real estate is too high because I can put it into Bitcoin and then I made the decision once my Bitcoin stack is large enough that I can lend against it to then have Equity that allows me to go to a bank and say look I have X amount of equity can you also give me a loan and
(37:06) then I would buy uh a house so I would basically not sell my stack I would lend against my stack and take that money as Equity go to a bank and say Here is's My Equity uh x amount of money and please give me loan as well and then I would I would buy a house so I would only buy a house if it does not endanger my stack that's how I personally look at it yeah and ideally you wouldn't even have to lend against your stack take that cash to the bank as Equity you can just take the Bitcoin to the bank and say hey
(37:38) I've got this much Bitcoin I'll du collateralize this this 30-year mortgage with some of this is that preferable or am I uh thinking yes think I was yeah you you are correct sorry it's actually true you're correct that that is that is preferable and there are services that offer that already that offer that already and in the US I think mostly right um so that is even a better idea because then you don't have to deal you know with with different financial institutions whoever gives you favorable
(38:05) interest rates at this amount of time I think a Bitcoin back Mor mortgage has higher interest rates than a regular mortgage because there's not a lot of competition but I think with time competition is going to increase as well and with more competition hopefully interest rates on bitcoin back loans are going to go down a little bit as well I don't know what your opinion is on that but I hope at least that competition will drive down interest rates a bit over time yeah I mean that makes sense I mean just think of down the hall from
(38:34) Unchained and their lending that's just purely using Bitcoin as collateral over collateralizing um a loan to get dollars the interest rate that they're um offering considering the the risk profile the credit product is I think obscene it's higher than it should be um people have to understand it's not unchain dictating that people providing the dollar to The Lending desks that really dictate that that um hurdle rate in terms of cost of capital that they need to give out to and consumers businesses um and when you consider the
(39:07) risk profile of the actual lending product it's Bitcoin with a 40% LTV esro in a two or three multisig wallet that cannot be re hypothecated like it nothing's risk-free but it's as close to risk-free as you can get and so uh one would think that giving the profile the credit product the interest rate would be lower than than riskier credit products like mortgages um simply not there yet because liquidity hasn't come to these deaths but I think it will eventually not only for Bitcoin collateralized US dollar loans Euro
(39:43) loans whatever it is but eventually these mortgage products as well which goes into the timing of all this and you alluded to it earlier once the strategy um is put into play it's probably going to take four to five years for it to be validated in the market because you need to go through a Bitcoin cycle to basically prove out that this is long-term advantageous for a real estate developer or somebody taking out a mortgage which gets to the question of timing like when you when you think there's a Tipping
(40:15) Point um of real estate developers mentioning oh we need to really hedge our our risk here with Bitcoin um and conversely on the consumer side if I'm getting a mortgage I want to to make sure I have Bitcoin in that as well um this is 5 10 15 year Trend or do you imagine there could be a scenario at some point in the medium term that that acts as a catalyst to to Really Rush people into this mhm yeah um I mean it's difficult to say but if you look at uh real estate and Bitcoin if you compare both assets so real estate is the number
(40:53) one store of value in the world and it's the number one type of collateral that's being used and you just explained why Bitcoin is actually better type of collateral because it has less risk so I believe that it's not just the store value function that real estate is taken on but it's also the collateral function that Bitcoin will most likely take over so that's why I always not always but I call Bitcoin digital real estate because it does allow you to store value and it does allow you to use Bitcoin as
(41:18) collateral and those are two functions that are um fulfilled by real estate at this point and Bitcoin is just a better digital option and and um the question is really how fast is going to is Bitcoin going to grow in value because because once Bitcoin grows in value significantly lenders will basically realize that including Bitcoin into their credit product is beneficial for them because it allows them to grow their their assets much faster right and also they'll understand Bitcoins function as a store of value and they
(42:00) understand it's functioning better as a store of value than real estate and it needs a proven track record for that because even though real estate has only quote unquote been used as a store of value since 1971 that is a longer time period than Bitcoin is in existence and most financial institutions today they follow what is called a historical school so in the 19th century there was something called Theoden stride and it was fight between Austrian economists and German Economist and the Austrian economists believe there are certain
(42:34) guiding principles for example a principle that Copernicus who was a monk came up with in Five 1517 and he said there's the quantity theory of money meaning if you increase the monetary Supply individual monetary units lose purchasing power so the austrians and um ker who published a book in 1871 called principles of economics they basically said there are principles that can guide economic policies and then the Germans their historical School set there are no first principles so we need to look at statistics we need to look at data and
(43:12) we can't evaluate things on principles we just need to look how things move in the market and that type of thinking is still the predominant thinking in the Fiat world so what I'm trying to say is I believe we need I'd say maybe another five 10 15 20 years of Bitcoin having a track record for people to trust Bitcoin because personally I trust Bitcoin because I looked at the code I understood how the technology works I understood that Satoshi was able to combine different um technological breakthroughs in in cryptography and
(43:48) computer science in a way nobody was before but that is something that somebody who um went through i' say more a canian type of education and who is um basing his thoughts in the historical German School of economics has problems with and they want data they want data they want statistics and they want a proven track record so I think it's going to take uh one to two decades but I think in one to two decades the whole world will know that Bitcoin is a superior store value in real estate and by judging by how fast people in the
(44:22) building environment around me that um two years ago thought that Bitcoin is not more than maybe a nice collectible or interesting speculation are already understanding that Bitcoin is a superior store value to real estate judging by that I think things can change very quickly but um not as quickly as we like I'd say 5 to 10 years would already be quick if you think of on of the the lifespan of humanity 5 to 10 years is nothing you know no no I mean 5 to 10 years I've been in Bitcoin for 11 years now it feels
(44:58) like it feels like a Flash and like with this in mind like how how big of an advantage do you think first movers with this particular strategy have over others like what what type of Head Start does acting on this strategy today as opposed to 5 years from now provide real estate developers lenders people putting uh structure credit products together oh I think it's huge and and you a good example just look at micro strategy so uh 5 years ago six years ago the market cap was hooving around a billion dollars I don't know
(45:36) the market cap today it should be somewhere between 30 to 50 billion dollars I don't know I didn't look into it but judging about the stock price I think and the outstanding shares and it should be something around that so just think about it my within like four years Michael saor improved um his the financial um Health in the position of its company tremendously um so it's very important to act quickly in my opinion because Bitcoin is monetizing so fast so processes prior to the internet took much longer right so um the
(46:12) industrialization of Germany came 30 years after the UK or 20 years after the UK and also telephone lines um took uh decades to be used globally but the internet changed that Dynamic so changes now happen very quickly and they happen globally all at the same time so I believe that is important to be able to act quickly and that's why it is not important in my opinion to just buy Bitcoin with the rental income you actually need to take on debt um because um the real estate business is very is very debt intense business anyway so
(46:49) then the question is what do you use the debt for do you use it to construct new Properties or do you use it to buy Bitcoin and within the last three years we did not take on any new projects sure we are finishing everything we started but um even though we had to use a lot of the capital that was allocated to bitcoin to um for our construction projects because things got so expensive we took the decision focus on bitcoin right now because Bitcoin is monetizing so fast you'll be very angry that you did not in 10 years and I say that as
(47:27) somebody who did not act as I should when I first learned about Bitcoin because I dismissed it because of my ego to be very honest with you was arrogant and now I know better and um if you learn about Bitcoin I think it's worthwhile to act fast I asked that question micro thank God you brought up micro strategy because they've accumulated now more than 1% of the total Bitcoin Supply that will ever exist and it seems pretty apparent that they've started a trend particularly in public equities markets of companies
(48:03) leveraging Capital markets to accumulate more Bitcoin increase their sets per share in that alone as a demand driver again one company accumulating 1% of the overall Supply who knows if others will be able to do that moving forward that's the advantage micro strategy provided Itself by being a first mover with the corporate balance balance sheet treasury strategy um I think that's going to pick up in public equities then you think of uh if this trend has a Tipping Point within real estate markets like how much
(48:37) Bitcoin does that pull off the market and you think about just these different demand drivers for Bitcoin uh corporate treasuries for publicly traded companies uh credit structures in the real estate market obviously individuals saving Bitcoin for for personal savings Sovereign wealth funds getting into Bitcoin like how much Supply do you think this this real estate strategy could pull off the market and more importantly for an extended period of time because if you're put it putting it in real estate credit structures that those are long
(49:15) duration credit products and so you're you're pulling a lot of Supply off the market for decades of many cases oh 100% I believe that next to Bitcoin being used uh in the equity Market as you just described and next to Southern wealth funds preferring Bitcoin over foreign currencies or derivatives or bonds I think the next big wave of liquidity that's coming into Bitcoin is from Real Estate and I judge that based on some statistics that I learned from uh from relay relays a Swiss Swiss broker and they told me that um in the
(49:56) last quarter of last year and the first quarter of this year over so was between 50 to 70% of the OTC volume of the over the-counter volume came from Real Estate Investors who had liquidity and they were reluctant to invest that into the real estate market because of higher interest rates so real estate basically became not as interesting anymore as an investment and then they gravitated towards Bitcoin becauseit coin also serves as a store of value and the Dynamics that are happening in real estate are similar to the Dynamics
(50:33) happening in the world of Bitcoin because a real estate developer generally knows that the Fiat system is inflationary so they understand if a inure debt in an inflationary fiat currency in a buyer scar asset real estate that Hedges that money against inflation I can use that asset and the cash flow of that asset to pay back the debt over time that decreases in value while the property increases in value and if you think about it of course Bitcoin has no cash flow it doesn't need to because it's increasing in purchasing
(51:06) power year on year so fast um but uh it has a very similar Dynamic where if you take on debt in an inflationary fiat currency and you put it into Bitcoin or you generally speaking take fiat currency which is a debt based currency anyway and you put it into Bitcoin you protect yourself against that infation so that Dynamic is very very similar and that's why I believe that Real Estate Investors will naturally gravitate towards Bitcoin and the reason they did not from let's say 2009 to 2021 was because of the low interest
(51:41) rate environment they uh had no reason to look into Bitcoin because money was so cheap and real estate was going up in value so fast that they made a killing they made tons of money and they were not even paying attention to bitcoin but now as the pain increased and the real estate market also felt the pain of the Fiat system because of higher construction cost um they had to look into Bitcoin right and uh I think like 70% or 50% of the OTC volume going into Bitcoin from Real Estate Investors I think is a pretty good indicator of what
(52:18) we can expect that is that's a very good data point and if you think about it too like the timing of that rotation because that that was I don't want to call it miraculous but um for the longest time Bitcoin was being described as this asset that only goes up in value um if we have easy monetary policy low interest rates QE bunch of money printing um which historically for the first 13 12 13 years of Bitcoin like was the case and Bitcoin obviously did go up significantly in value but I think one of the incredible things the last
(52:58) two three years is the fact that interest rates went up to 5 and a half% and Bitcoin hit alltime highs uh with interest rates at that level and talking about this data point from R out of Switzerland like if you think about the Real Estate Investors that funneled um their profits into Bitcoin Q4 last year q1 this year I mean if they did it around this time last year they're up more than 100% if they did at the beginning of the year they're still up 60% and that that small track record very short track record but those are
(53:33) numbers that stand out um to these investors like holy crap I just doubled my money um by funneling it into Bitcoin I just increased my money by 60% by funneling into Bitcoin at the beginning of this year and I have to imagine that creates somewhat of a viral effect of people in real estate like look what I did funneled the profits in the Bitcoin when it didn't make sense to allocate to real estate State and I'm doing very well with that particular trade and they're they're definitely telling their
(54:01) buddies and thinking I want to do this again and so thinking about like timing Tipping Point like who knows we could be closer than people imagine if if you have virality like is it is it a big braggadocious industry like are do you think those developers are going yeah look what I did you're missing out no I mean you it's correct yes it's an industry where people like to tell each other did a good investment you know to let's say people sit together at lunch or having drinks after work and that's usually something that people do
(54:35) you know they tell you know they if they made a good investment I guess um so um very true and there's also something that is happening with everyone that happened with myself so once you put your money into Bitcoin and it increases in value so fast you have to make a decision what do I do now do I diversify quote unquote out of Bitcoin back into a fiat-based asset or do you understand that Bitcoin is going to continue to increase in purchasing power and then suddenly you say oh wow I can sell other assets maybe as well to have more
(55:09) liquidity so these people that we are talking about I could imagine in the future that they also say you know what I'm not just taking profits I'm going to sell some real estate because it's a better use of my Capital to put it into Bitcoin and that's going to create a bit of selling pressure obviously I don't know how many people are going to to do that but that's going to happen on an individual level and um as that happens people will understand and it's going to become part of culture to understand
(55:39) that it's easier to save in Bitcoin than having to hassle to invest in in real estate because it's more tax efficient I mean it's depending on the jurisdiction I'm going to go through some jurisdictions in the US as far as I know if you hold it longer than one year it's not personal income tax but but it's capital gains tax so in Germany if you hold it longer than one year selling Bitcoin is taxfree taking a loan against your Bitcoin is taxfree you obviously have to pay interest rates on the loan
(56:08) but if you want to sell the Bitcoin or if you take a loan against it it's taxfree so it's also very it's a tax efficient um uh asset its value cannot be captured so quickly because if you think about it if the Fiat system is going to continue its downward trajectory governments are faced with a problem how can we get more money and they have two ways I mean they have different ways but two dominant ways they can tax you or they can obviously they can print money but they can tax you or they can basically confiscate your wealth and um
(56:45) how are you going to confiscate Bitcoin right you you can just leave a jurisdiction with your Bitcoin it cannot be confiscated so easily and so there are some um benefits of Bitcoin next to it being such a good store of value meaning uh it's such a good way of protecting Capital because it's just such a good asset that cannot be stolen and here right now in Europe I mean I mean things are going a very negative way um I don't know what's going to happen but I think people understand that they need to save their
(57:19) value in an asset that cannot be destroyed by a bomp I just have to say it as easily as that because I've talked with many people that came over to Germany um mainly from Ukraine and there are two type of of individuals that I talked to so there are young individuals Millennials and they mostly saved some of their capital in Bitcoin they just took their wealth with them the ones over 30 over 35 they usually own real estate the real estate is now gone um so I think it's important to understand that the benefits of Bitcoin not only
(57:51) lie in its Supply not um easy being tampered with in its absolutely scarcity but also its Mobility as a digital asset it just to Superior store value in the digital world yeah and I think that I mean the geopolitical situation and individual because I've seen it um here in the states I know I know many individuals who um were doing the Airbnb game where they buy a property and run out Airbnb and it just became too much of a hassle um and too much of a risk considering the cash flows producing particularly postco and they decided to
(58:32) liquidate their Airbnb portfolios and just buy Bitcoin and as you mentioned that's happening in other places and I think that's a trend that will continue especially as I mean you think of like the laws too like not only do you have this sort of consumable good it comes with maintenance cost tax but postco here in the US I'm not sure if it happened in Europe but you had these eviction laws where you couldn't evict a tenant um and and they could potentially just hold you hostage and stay in your
(59:02) property and not pay you rent and there was nothing you could do about it that's extreme risk where you have all this capital outlaid and you're literally getting no cash flow because the government came out with a law during emergency times that said you can't evict your tenants and so you're sort of [ __ ] out of luck there and literally going to lose your money in your investment because the government just came in and said hey you can't kick these people out you can't make money essentially um and again going back to I
(59:31) know you touched on earlier you can't put um a stark number on but like the decrease of that premium $300 trillion do in real estate assets globally like if you had to Ballpark it like at the end of the day when bitcoin's fully monetized real estate has been demonetized down to its utility value like how big do you think the overall real estate market is globally and today's dollars obviously we're going to print a bunch you have Wick Stein's ruler if we were to try to calculate in today's dollars mhm yeah I
(1:00:05) was about to say I mean the nominal value of real estate is most likely going to continue to increase because um nation states need to create additional currency to cope with Waring cost but if we think about today's dollars and we just compare Bitcoin and real estate I mean real estate should be between 5 to 10% of what it is now maybe 15 to 20% so and Bitcoin should be 3 to 600 times larger than it is today in my opinion so Bitcoin is a 300 to 600 trillion asset because if you think about the money that also sits in
(1:00:47) bonds the money that sits in in art the money that sits in Golds I mean the money that sits in equity will most likely continue to sit there because Equity next to being used as a store of value they have an investment component so I'm not going to talk about the money that sits in equities but I personally believe that the money that sits in bonds the money that sits in real estate or most of the money that sits in real estate 80% the money that sits in art as well and the money that sits in precious metals that should really sit in Bitcoin
(1:01:15) so um I could say you know real estate should be a 10 to 30 um or 15 to to 30 maximum 4050 trillion asset because there is still I mean if people are wealthy and they want to acquire a house and they subjectively are willing to pay a premium because of its location for example you know uh at on the beach uh in Miami they will do that so real estate will still be um expensive in certain locations but Bitcoin should be 300 to 600 Tron asset and real estate should be a 15 to 30 maximum 4050 um TR and ass said 4050 is a lot right but um
(1:02:00) 15 to 30 sounds more reasonable in my opinion if you talk about the utility value of real estate this is going to be scary for a lot of people particularly anybody in real estate listening to this but why should people want this to happen particularly real estate developers yeah um first of all maybe what's going to happen now is very similar to what happened 150 years ago when um the Industrial Revolution caused monarchs um to basically lose their dominant position in society because people were making money nor
(1:02:33) with aculture but with the different Industries and so today if you are a wealthy individual within the Fiat system just be aware that the paradigm shift that Bitcoin is bringing to the real estate industry is probably going to impoverish you similar to how the monarchs were impoverished 150 years ago in Europe through the Industrial Revolution um I think that's like uh a natural process um a natural process um that will happen and for the consumer because now we have to think we've talked quite a lot about the perspective
(1:03:08) of an investor or of a developer if we take the perspective of any consumer of an individual housing is going to become cheaper and housing is going to become more affordable because at this point of time housing is very very expensive and that drives up the cost of living and also because real estate is the number one store of value and it's inaccessible a lot of people cannot take credit and to not be able to take credit in an inflationary system is obviously not good because you need to be able to borrow to keep up with the rate of
(1:03:40) inflation so um Bitcoin is going to make housing more affordable but also by replacing real estate as the N dominant type of collateral it can help individuals in this in the shift from a Fiat onto a Bitcoin based system to be able to take credit on a Bitcoin based system taking credit is a different story because if you think about it that will actually increase in purchasing power over time because if you take on that doin denominated in Bitcoin it's going to increase in purchasing power over time so you do not want to take
(1:04:15) that if it's not necessary but there will most likely be a transition phase that's going to take decades and in that transition phase it is beneficial to be able to take credit and Bitcoin allows you to do that because it's accessible and it can be uh utilized globally yeah when you think of the end state of this trend playing out too for the consumer may not be great for developers particularly if you're a bad developer but for the consumer at the end of the day like this is a cleansing mechanism
(1:04:45) for the market of people developing real estate and the ones that are going to survive are the ones that are providing the best product at the end of the day and so going back to bitcoin urbanism and how do we build a more beautiful sustainable longlasting physical environment I think this is a natural Catalyst for that where you're going to have this transition and the monetary premium within real estate it's going to be demonetized by Bitcoin over time and then the developers that are still around on the other side of this
(1:05:22) transition are the ones that are actually providing the best service at the end of the day building the best buildings building the best commercial real estate properties that that people actually feel comfortable parting uh ways with Bitcoin to acquire exactly because if you think about it there was very little competition so far in real estate because it was easy to make money to be honest because there was so much liquidity going into the market that the nominal value of real estate increased so fast that you didn't
(1:05:53) have to be particularly intelligent to be successful so in real estate you're just basically writing um um a certain Market Trend and that market trend is reversing because now there's competition that competition is Bitcoin and that's tough competition so as the speculation moves over from Real Estate into Bitcoin it's important to uh to utilize Bitcoin to survive that transition phase this is fascinating you always make me very bullish it's it's it is it's like tempered like bullishness
(1:06:25) with not dread but oh my gosh it's a massive problem that could cause a lot of negative externalities as we transition but overall I think it's it's equal parts exciting because you think about the potential if you're holding Bitcoin for its value to Rise um equal parts exciting and then equal parts almost dismaying because it's like ah how many lives and businesses is this going to disrupt but I think the anybody listening to this that's in real estate should take what you're saying to heart
(1:06:56) and really think about the credit structures particularly and the incorporation of Bitcoin into your business flow very seriously because if you think that you are a competent real estate developer and you want to survive this transition like we said earlier like the earlier you start incorporating these strategies into to your business the the the higher the likelihood that you will survive in the long term and while it may be uh a bit dismaying to think about the demonetization of the asset that you've built your business around like you do
(1:07:31) have a way to create the soft Landing for yourself in your business if you take action exactly and that's very important because if you think about it um there are these Cycles um in that happen all the time in human history um they are linked to various things but you can link them to inflation meaning that currencies usually inflate to a point where they collapse that also means societal collapse and for the first time in history and I think that's pretty exciting we have an asset that can protect people and that's
(1:08:03) why it's important what you are doing and you tell people basically that this asset exists it can protect people in businesses from societal collapse so um in the past um societal collapse that followed inflation always meant people had to rely on foreign currencies or gold right but using gold as a store very is difficult if it's illegal because for example in Germany when we had the hyperinflation in Vima in the Vima Republic from 1919 till 1923 people were not allowed to hold gold and that basically meant there was no asset in
(1:08:38) the economy that protected people from inflation and from societal collapse and what happened after we know so um now for the first time in history the cycle that is repeating all the time can hopefully be broken by Bitcoin because Bitcoin can really allow people to protect protect themselves and it can also protect them from the lies of central Bankers because Central Bankers usually lose they usually use a crisis to um their advantage by saying oh the crisis happened because of blah blah blah blah blah usually they pinpoint to
(1:09:14) an enemy on foreign soil you know that is that is responsible for the crisis but now people actually see you are responsible for the crisis and they understand it because there's a asset that has a different d damic with a kept Supply and a non ISU Shadle that is basically a theory that is proving itself to be a better monetary system than the existing Fiat system and the inflationary system that we've lived through hundreds and thousands of years so it's really an interesting point for Humanity here yeah exciting time to be
(1:09:52) alive seriously if you're in real estate take Leon's work to Heart I've got friends that I'm definitely going to send this episode to that I'm thinking of that are in real estate and it is like a big jump Bitcoin is scary and like tiar point about the central Bankers lying was hilarious literally yesterday had Neil cashcari coming out saying that Bitcoin is essentially worthless and this is the same man who four years ago went on 60 Minutes and admitted that the Federal Reserve has infinite cash to uh to deploy into the
(1:10:23) market it's like what asset is really wor worthless here in something that is literally infinite or something that is extremely scarce perfectly scarce 21 million um yeah interesting times thank you for all the work that you're doing I think the and you mentioned it in your Prague speech it's been a tough couple years with the the Bitcoin bear cycle and interest rates being high in real estate um and it's been long slog uh but things are looking brighter on the other side yeah yeah no thank you
(1:11:04) also for yeah for giving me the platform to share my ideas and for your work and and spreading uh the gospel of Bitcoin so to say and I'm looking forward to the bull market the last three years where a lot of work but um I'm certain that things will pay off I am as well and with that um is there any bold prediction or idea that you have in the realm of Bitcoin real estate I mean I think your ideas in real estate are are contrari and and many people will disagree with them but like any any ideas we just throw it out there for
(1:11:39) Bitcoin and real estate that you have predictions that you have that you think most people would disagree with interestingly that yeah I mean people disagree with most of what I say uh within the the realm of real estate at least um but I have no um no particular theory that I can come up with now but I have to say that most of the things that I say people usually disagree with but not the bitcoiners of course and I pay attention to the bitcoiners because I view bitcoiners as some of the smartest people that I've literally ever met so I
(1:12:18) take the criticism whether it's constructive or negative from the Bitcoin circuits very serious obviously take criticism also from the world of real estate series because there are some individuals that are really good business uh men and women that have experience but um yeah I mean I'm I'm yeah but nothing in particular that comes to my mind now yeah I think I think the uh the real estate industry probably disagrees a lot you're saying but again cognitive dissidence it's like no no my business
(1:12:50) is not in a systemically weak position due to the demone ation of of the asset that it's built on but um hopefully people wake up I think this conversation will help anybody out there in real estate unlock some some insights into how they can prepare for the the demonetization that is already underway um so thank you again for all the work that you're doing where can people find out more about what you're building you're writing a book when can they expect that to come out hopefully q1 or Q2 next year I'm really taking my my
(1:13:25) time with this um I'm having a team now actually that is helping me with putting together graphs tables and and things like that so I'm really taking the time to present this information in a digestible way and if you want to follow my process I have a newsletter um on Leon v.s sub.
(1:13:48) com where I share a monthly piece where I go deep into uh my thought process and I do share also um things that I read personally if people want to understand why I think the way that I think and you can find me on Nostra at Leon vanum and um still on X of course as well uh what not of course but um I'm on X as well so yeah you can find my stuff there go check it out freaks we're going to link to all this in the show notes Leon keep crushing it brother hopefully we can do it again at some point soon thank you you too peace and love freaks okay
